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Subject: Re: CV full curing time


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Message Thread:

CV full curing time

Willem Martins  Member


Our challenge is the occasional customer (always the wife) who wants a color on their cabinets, which is not available from the manufacturer.

We would then refinish the cabinets with a catalyzed vinyl sealer and two CV top coats.

The challenge is they get installed the next day or couple of days, after which the other trades do their things and they work around a finish which is still curing.

After as much research as possible, cannot find any information on how long Sherwin Williams CV takes to cure to reasonable or full durability.

Please share any similar experience.

6/6/21       #2: CV full curing time ...
Leo G Member

Well ML Campbell's CV cures about 85% in the first 24 hours and then over the course of 2 weeks or so completely cures.

Heating up the finish after it flashes off can speed up curing. 110º for 2 hours or so will really speed up the cure.

6/7/21       #3: CV full curing time ...

Are you in contact with your Sherwin industrial branch? All their sheets specify the standard testing procedures Leo mentions, print tests after 24 hours, etc..

It would seem if your work is getting damaged after install no amount of curing time is going to save you. Its not like the extra 15% of cure (or any amount of additional cure for that matter) after a couple weeks is going to turn the finish from an fragile Robin's egg to an armored sherman tank. If the other trades are damaging the work then its damaged. A bit of extra curing is not going to save it.

6/7/21       #4: CV full curing time ...
Leo G Member

Do what I do and don't trust anyone. Put moving blankets over the cabinets to protect them. If they get damaged you really have a claim that you had them protected as well as could be.

6/7/21       #5: CV full curing time ...

I dont do any of that. The work is delivered, and accepted, at the time of delivery. Whatever happens to it after that point? Its on the party in possession of the work at that point in time. Lowes or Home Depot are not covering a bunch of baboons beating up their product delivered in accepted condition and then beaten to a pulp for the weeks that span between delivery and occupancy.... There isnt a single item in a job that has that level of foolishness attached. Trades dont pi** and sh*t in the customers toilets, and they are covered or taped shut. Heck, we had make sure capped closet flanges were installed on the rough-in because trades would try to pee in the open flange or even squat over an open flange. But the cabinet trade has to be responsible for the electricians or HVAC or plumbers using cabs as a ladder? Or leaning a ladder against them? You can only be expected to protect your work to a reasonable extent and that extent is from my shop to the job site. At that point... Im off the hook.

6/7/21       #6: CV full curing time ...
Leo G Member

Being off the hook doesn't mean you don't have to repair or remake/replace what someone else damages. That can interfere with your schedule. You'll get paid for it. And I never suggested that if someone damages it it's on you to repair/replace. It definitely isn't, there will be a charge for the cabinet and the time.

But it's inconvenient. Sounds like you make and drop off. Lots of us make, deliver and install. So after you did all that work the last thing you need is someone bumbling their way over them with metal tools.

6/7/21       #7: CV full curing time ...
Jon Member

Leo is exactly right. It's not about who is at fault, or who gets paid for what, it's who has to repair the damage, and can it be repaired so it looks like it did before the damage (doubtful). It is also important to me to take care of our customer. In today's world, I know that is a novel idea.

I do not have the time to repair damage irregardless if whether I get paid for it or not.

6/7/21       #8: CV full curing time ...
Leo G Member

Just had the countertop guys drop a counter on a Euro cab top stretcher so hard it split the wood in half and took a chunk out of the top corner. GC said put a screw in it and some colored wax.

They had just paid for a brand new kitchen and I'm suppose to hack a fix that I know full well isn't going to last more than a few years no matter what I do.

I remade the cabinet, used the other components because they weren't damaged and charged the countertop company.

I'm swamped, I didn't have time for that. Worked until midnight one night to make, prime and paint the cabinet. 1 1/2 hours round trip and a half hour to refit and replace the cabinet. The floor had a 1"drop over the length of the kitchen so it was a fun cabinet to replace, at least the lean of the floor helped me get it out from under the countertop.

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6/8/21       #9: CV full curing time ...
Willem Martins  Member


Thanks for all the responses. It seems we are in a different market compared to most of the responses. We do around three to four new construction homes a week, which means design, supply and install. Our installers are all independent contractors. We have four dedicated builders who give us 100% of their business. We purchase 95% of what gets installed, the remainder gets made in our own shop.

Having an attitude of walking away from a job if someone else scratched or damaged a cabinet sure would put a dent in our revenue. All the work we do has two install visits, the second being installation of trim and there is always touch up involved. Most caused by the other trades, some caused by our own installers.

We deal with SW industrial and as repainting remains a small part of our portfolio CV varnish is normally purchased by the gallon. Our experience is the rep is not a paint expert and a new finish does not cure 85% in two days. A belt buckle will tear right through a new dark finish of a fresh painted cabinet and expose the factory white coating. It means the installer has to handle it really carefully and most of the time a bit of touch up is needed.

We, as well as all our competitors purchase a touch up kit for every job from the supplier and supply the customer with an aerosol can. It is standard practice.

The Lowe’s cabinet example is crazy, we would empty our local branch once a week and pay 40% more for supply. The poster must be in a totally different market.

6/8/21       #10: CV full curing time ...

I make good money fixing trade F'ups.

6/8/21       #11: CV full curing time ...
Leo G Member

Sounds more like an adhesion issue than a curing issue. If a belt buckle "tears right through" the finish then something isn't right. It should scratch the surface but it shouldn't really take the paint off.

6/8/21       #12: CV full curing time ...
Daniel Berlin Member

There is a lot of cargo-culting around finish cure times.
But it's just chemistry.

The typical kind of pTSA catalyzed Alkyd/Amino mixes you find labeled as "Conversion Varnish", can easily cure 85% in two days.

This is also true of 2k urethanes, which can often cure 100% in 72 hours or less, with reasonable pot life.

A lot depends on the chemical reaction and what it requires to move forward until it's done.

In the case of acid-catalyzed CV, it's acid level and cure temperature that matter most.

A lot of the variability comes in if the reaction requires air or moisture to move forward, and you can get very long full-cure times because it then depends on permeability.

That is, once the top skins over, how much air/moisture gets to the next "layer" depends on the permeability of the previous layer.

They usually aren't that permeable, and as a result, it can take a while for enough air/moisture to get through the whole film.

But, again, for catalyzed chemical reactions, the reaction usually only depends on the catalyst and temperature, and in that case, it's cure time is going to be very standard.

6/8/21       #13: CV full curing time ...

I was in no way intimating anyone should or would walk away from anything or not do as Leo and have a sound product delivered to a customer who paid for a sound product and installation. My point was, no one, literally no one, is providing touchups or replacement of product for owner damage by default or for free as part of their offering and the issue should be avoiding them in the first place (which I dont doubt in any way you havent/are trying to).

It may be what we in the business think we have to do to get paid or that its "just gonna happen", but also as Leo pointed out, the individuals who damaged the work should be paying for the repair. If its your own crew, its something you have to figure out. With that, an extra week or two of cure time is never going to save any finish from a belt buckle, a boot, the corner of a ladder, the rivet on a pair of jeans, and accidental spill or drop. Lamborghini's and Bughatti's are worked on every day without a scratch. High end floors are installed, protected, and unveiled to the customer barely ever seeing a single shoe (which is the way it should be).

It sounds like #1 you need to get past the mindset that its just something you have to accept. That your crew will damage your work and touchups are just part of the process. That would seem to be the first salvo in the war on trying to eliminate the damage in the first place. Next would be addressing your GC firmly and having them rip their sub's about not damaging making it clear they will be billed directly for any damage. Given that process is a nightmare it would seem an investment in ramboard and shrinkwrap and protecting your work would be far cheaper than the touchups and having to then deal with the inevitable customer issue that balks with regards to having to accept "touched up" cabinets.

I was a GC for 30 years before cabs. We didnt do paint "touchups" on walls. Period. Ever. Never. Tinted prime, first coat then wait. The final coat of paint was coordinated to be nearly the last thing to go in before perhaps carpet and furnishings. After all the goons were gone, a flawless final halo coat of paint went on. After that the carpet layers come in and get their glory and plates of brownies from the homeowners as they are the ones that make the job look finished after umpteen other trades battled it out for year(s). But that said, zero touchups. Its just a matter of arranging the flow to eliminate the need. We would even install corner protectors on outside corners, jambs, etc.. so the carpet layers wouldnt burlap the finish off an outside corner with the carpet backer but a good carpet layer will leave no trace. Sucks, but cheaper than re-paint over carpet.

Now in the cabinet trade, unless your in a situation like Leo's, there is nearly no touchups either. Its halo or replaced and if someone damages, they pay. The point is, deal with the damage. If your in a slam bam market thats a bummer... but again... 3 months of cure is still going to fail to a belt buckle.

You have to stop the belt buckle. The curing time will do nothing against steel. "The Fonz" wore his belt buckle on the side of his pants for a reason, because he was a greaser working on vehicles and leaned over fenders. There is no amount of cure time thats going to stop a baboon.

6/8/21       #14: CV full curing time ...
Willem Martins  Member


No touch ups is a good thought. The industry is crazy right now. The area we serve is extremely safe, there is no theft, nothing gets locked, nothing goes missing. Folks are nice and honest here, good people. While that is a great thing, it also means zero supervision. The GC’s are so busy they are never on site and the subs come and go as they wish. The homes are open to anyone.

Each job is covered with cardboard and plastic after an install, but it still happens when the final trades hook up electrical, install ovens and microwaves etc.

Good for those who work in a controlled environment where this is totally avoided.

The last spray job we did is now on day four and I must say, I can sleep better as the finish is a lot harder.

We have a no more than one hour touch up clause in our contract, but it is just a formality. Recently replaced a light rail for the fourth time, microwave was reinstalled, the installer trashed the light rail. Home owner did not like the microwave, got a different one, light rail trashed again. Microwave went faulty, got removed trashed the light rail once more. Then it happened the fourth time. The GC did not even get involved, we worked directly with the homeowner. GC offered to pay, but with three homes coming our way from him we just ate it.

For those living in a perfect world, great. It sure is not perfect in Central North Carolina.

6/26/21       #15: CV full curing time ...
Daniel Shafner Member

My information comes from Akzo-Nobel.....CV cure times is like this, 80% cure within the first three days, and then the remaining cure over the next three to four weeks.

For solvent precats and for waterborne materials, the cure time is three to four weeks for a full cure.


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