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3M PPS-H/O (high output)

6/17/15       
Mark V.

For years I have been using gravity guns equipped with the 3M PPS system. I love the ease of use, fast changeover of finish and quick clean up, but the speed of application has at times been a drag.

So I thought I needed a faster set-up and purchased a CAT Cougar AAA unit and set it up with a gravity feed cup. As many of you know, itís incredibly fast to lay down finish, but I find prep in the morning and clean up in the afternoon a huge pain. Also, based on the volume of material I spray, I have a lot of wasted material and cleanup solvent. If I was spraying lots of finish, all the time, this system would be awesome, but currently this purchase may have been a mistake for my shop.

I donít want a pressure pot because I think that I will have the same wasted materials and the cleanup issues I am having with the AAA system.

I generally spray less than 2 gallons of finish at a time, a couple of days a month. Also, I spray a lot of parts vertically and here is where I am having the biggest problem with the gravity set up. The bottom edges are being starved and the speed of application is too slow.

So I would like to hear from those that are using the pressurized PPS system. Will this give me the additional speed I am looking for along with the other benefits of the PPS system? What about the dripping cups I have heard about, is this normal or is this rare? Any other insight that you could share would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark

6/18/15       #2: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mastercabman

Just curious
How do you use a gravity gun with a AAA pump?

6/18/15       #3: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Mastercabman,

Because I generally spray small quantities of finish, I use a gravity feed cup similar to what is shown in this link...

Mark

Gravity Cup Attachment

6/18/15       #4: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mastercabman

Sorry my bad
I was thinking you were referring to a gravity feed "gun"

6/18/15       #5: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Jim,

I think that you posted to the wrong thread, so I am copy and pasting it here so I can replyÖ

--------------------------------------------------------

Refer to post dated 5/27/15 in this forum. ""New spray systeams"

They work great when they don't leak. If I use mine know I wrap a rag around the clear cup/black lid joint.......then keep an eye on that. I try to never use more then 3lbs. Pressure. With the PPS pressureized system you have more speed and can spray upside down. Always, be watching for leaks. ......!

--------------------------------------------------------

I have been thinking about the PPS-H/O system for a while and the post that you referenced was the first one that I had seen that spoke about leaks. There is also one (out of 18) review on Amazon that comments about leaking. When the standard PPS came out, I remember a few people complaining about issues that I had/have never experienced. So it got me thinking if this was the case again. I wondered if you got a defective unit of if this was commonplace.

Mark

6/19/15       #6: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
JM

Im not sure how the gravity hopper on the pump saves any more finish that using the siphon hose??

We mix our finish in a 2qt mixing container, and when it starts getting low, we tip the cup on an angle and the siphon hose will suck right up till the last half ounce. Im more than happy to give up a half oz of finish for the speed of the pump. Secondly, for small jobs, Im not sure how you would mix up the exact amount anyways, its always just a best guess and you want to error on having a little too much mixed so you dont run out half way through your last part.

The only extra waste from a pump is the finish that is required to prime the system, but that should make no significant difference between a hopper or siphon tube.

I also have to believe that the siphon tube must be easier to clean the system out.

6/19/15       #7: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Denny J

It's like drinking beer through a straw or through a bong. They both work but the funnel will not work the pump as hard as the siphon tube. Both ways work well if you plan around how they operate.

6/19/15       #8: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Oh boyÖÖ.

JM,
While I would love to get into a discussion with you of why I, and many others, use a gravity hopper, I simply donít have the time or energy and I know that you are very set in your ways and I have no hope of convincing you otherwise. (Remember the ďstupidĒ hanging rail system I use? :-) )

By my calculations I waste about 12oz of finish every time I fire up the AAA (8oz in the 1/4Ē x 25í hose and 4oz in the pump, gun and cup). So if I spray a gallon of sealer and a gallon of CV Iíve wasted approximately 24oz of finish and probably a similar amount of cleaning solvent. Then I have to dispose of it in a responsible and legal manner.

You are probable wasting a similar amount because your smaller diameter lines are offset by your large diameter suction tube and mixing container, but Iím sure you are spraying a much greater amount so your waste percentage goes way down.

You have to keep in mind that wasted material is just one of many reasons why I want to look into a different system.

Do you have any advice about the 3M PPS-H/O system?

Mark

6/20/15       #9: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mastercabman

OK so I'm a little confused about the OP
Maybe someone can enlight me
I'm not a full time finisher but I do small projects/onsite repairs and touch ups
I got myself set up with compressor,low cfm gravity guns with the 3m pps
I have use a AAA a couple times and really like it but the AAA is more for speed/production work(please correct me if I'm wrong)
So why would you want to put a gravity cup on a AAA?
Don't you still have to flush the fluid line?
The pump is going to suck whatever you have regardless if it's in a can or a gravity cup
If you just need to spray smaller projects, why not go with a small pressure feed system?
As far as the pressurized 3m pps,isn't it for turbine style spray guns?I don't think you will get a lot of pressure. Just enough to push the material
Please feel free to correct me but what I know is from classes that I've been to by CA Technology at my local Wurth group supplier
Sorry for all the questions but I'm really lost on what benefits you get with that set up
Thanks. Jerry

6/20/15       #10: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Mastercabman,

Ive copied and pasted you, because you have asked a lot of question...

--------------------------------------------------------

"O
K so I'm a little confused about the OP
Maybe someone can enlight me
I'm not a full time finisher but I do small projects/onsite repairs and touch ups

I got myself set up with compressor,low cfm gravity guns with the 3m pps"

******I have been spraying with gravity guns equipped with PPS for years and I love them to get in and out of different finishes fast and the quick clean-up. I now spray a lot of my parts hanging vertically and the PPS does not like spraying straight up. Itís also a little too slow for my tastes, especially when spraying large panels like a refrigerator panel (lying horizontal).*****

--------------------------------------------------------

&
quot;I have use a AAA a couple times and really like it but the AAA is more for speed/production work(please correct me if I'm wrong)"

******This is correct, it is very fast. It will also spray consistently at any angle including straight up. Unfortunately, I bought into the hype that AAA was the second coming, not realizing that I would be wasting finish, cleaning solvent and time in my regular use. Not to mention the time wasted if you have a problem with the pump or gun. Please keep in mind that I am referring to my particular operation and am not slamming AAA systems. If I was consistently laying down 5 gallons of finish at a time we wouldnít even be having this conversation.******

-------------------------------------------------------- >"So why would you want to put a gravity cup on an AAA?"

******To get in and out of small quantities of finish with as little waste as possible. Everyone was saying that you only needed several ounces of solvent to flush the system (I call BS on that!) and I totally underestimated how much fluid would be contained in the lines.

Let me clarify something hereÖI use catalyzed finishes, so what I donít use is waste, it canít be dumped back into the pail. If I was using water based or pre-cat the AAA would rock, even with small quantities.******

--------------------------------------------------------

&
quot;Don't you still have to flush the fluid line?"

******Yes******

------------------------------------------------
--------

"The pump is going to suck whatever you have regardless if it's in a can or a gravity cup
If you just need to spray smaller projects, why not go with a small pressure feed system?"

******Exactly, that is why I am inquiring about the PPS-H/O (pressure fed cups), but unfortunately we have gotten far off track focusing on how my AAA is set up. :-( ******

--------------------------------------------------------

"As far as the pressurized 3m pps,isn't it for turbine style spray guns?I don't think you will get a lot of pressure. Just enough to push the material"

******Itís available for any gun that can take the regular PPS, not just guns with a pressure outlet. I need it to push the material faster than the regular PPS and also spray straight up, like a pressure pot without the hose.******

--------------------------------------------------------

"P
lease feel free to correct me but what I know is from classes that I've been to by CA Technology at my local Wurth group supplier

Sorry for all the questions but I'm really lost on what benefits you get with that set up

Thanks. Jerry"

--------------------------------------------------------

******M
aybe a link will help???******

Mark

PPS-H/O

6/20/15       #11: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Wow, it didn't look like that when I previewed it.

Sorry guys.
Mark

6/20/15       #12: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mastercabman

OK I'm getting a much better picture on what you are trying to do
Thanks for explaining
BTW I do know you can use those h/o on any gun I just thought that most would be use for turbine system

6/20/15       #13: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Denny J

It seems like the thread went in a few directions. My experience with the products (And only my experience) is:

AAA- Whether you siphon or gravity feed the performance at the spray tip will be similar. The difference is merely how you introduce product to the pump. There will be benefits to each that may be a good fit for different scenarios.

PPS/PPS-HO.
They both offer quick change overs of materials and allow you to spray upside down better than a conventional cup or siphon gun.

Neither will keep up with a pressure pot,Airless or AAA over the course of a shift because they only hold a quart or less of product which means more frequent stopping to refill.

To use the HO cups you need a gun with an air port or a regulator with one. They can be used in Turbine and conventional guns as long as they have an air port.

As far as spraying upside down and speed between PPS and PPS HO the HO may be somewhat faster but for the most part the speed will come from using larger nozzles. IME you can spray thicker materials with the HO than with the standard PPS.This is solely based on using a turbine and does not apply to compressor guns as I have never used HO on one.

I would say if you spray in a shop and spray more than a few gallons a day the AAA would be a good long term investment. You still need a compressor as well. A turbine is a great choice for on site work and smaller volume projects and as time goes by, it isn't out of possibility that you would want both in order to use the best one for each individual project.

Typically I would recommend starting with a turbine and PPS and use that to build your business and then add the AAA as you feel you can sustain the volume to make it worthwhile.

6/22/15       #14: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Rick Mosher  Member

Website: profinisher.blogspot.com/

With small quantities the 3M PPS and a gravity cup are the best way to go if you want to minimize waste.

Get the largest cup size and if the fluid flow is too slow just go to a larger size fluid nozzle. I use a 2.8 tip for spraying polyester finishes and primers don't have any problem going fast and laying down a lot off mils.

6/22/15       #15: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Rick,

I'm assuming that you are referring to the standard PPS.

For some reason, on gravity/siphon guns, I thought you were supposed to use the smallest needle/nozzle/air cap possible in order to get the best possible finish. It never even occurred to me to use a larger set-up. I think I am using a 1.7 for sealer and CV that I typically thin 6-9%.

What about spraying straight up? I am hanging my doors by the hinge side and my drawer fronts by the bottom, so both the handle side of the door and the top of the drawer fronts, when installed on the cabinet, are highly visible and both are sprayed straight up in the booth. Will a larger N/N/Air Cap eliminate my starved bottom edges, even though I am fighting against gravity?

Currently, with my gravity gun equipped with the PPS, I have to make multiple perpendicular passes in order to get a satisfactory layer of finish on the bottom edges. If I spray the bottom edges at an angle from the front and back, I have the tendency to get sags on the front and back. If I had to guess, while spraying straight up, the gravity gun with all the air bled out of the PPS, sprays out maybe 25% of what is does normally.

Mark

6/22/15       #16: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
JM

Not sure how you hang your doors, but if they are on a flexible wire or chain, can you hold the door horizontal and then spray the bottom edge, then release the door so it is hanging vertical on the wire/chain and spray the other 3 edges and 2 faces? Just a thought to eliminate the spraying upside down issue.

6/22/15       #17: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Denny J

Your limiting factors will be how much sag resistance the finish you are spraying has and how well the gun you have will atomize the coating. I don't think you will have a problem if you use the Accuspray 10 GP and PPS with a turbine. As far as the tip size, that will be determined by the product you are spraying but for clears I typically used the 1.4mm equilavent and for paints i would use either the 2.0 or 2.0 equivalent.

You should be capable of a wet coat that will give you coverage without sag.

6/23/15       #18: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

JM,

Yes, I tried that and it was not very effective. My hand got covered with finish and it only really works on smaller doors. The large doors are too cumbersome to hold with one hand while spraying with the other.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Mark

6/23/15       #19: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Denny,

The reason for the sag towards the bottom of the hanging door was if I spray the bottom edge at an angle and then spray the face I was getting too much finish close to the edge, which would then be pulled down by gravity.

If I spray the bottom edge perpendicularly, which in my case would be straight up, I do not have a problem with sagging.

Mark

PS: Denny, thanks for the private message over the weekend it was very helpful.

6/23/15       #20: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Rick Mosher  Member

Website: profinisher.blogspot.com/

I normally spray 2k urethane with a 1.4 tip. I have sprayed it with a 2.8 tip with no problem. The main thing is to control the flow by feathering the trigger by hand. I haven't noticed any difference in atomization and as long as you apply consistent mil thickness less than 3.5 to 4 mils it shouldn't sag on a vertical surface.

With sag prone finishes I usually apply a light tack coat first which I let flash and then apply my full coat of finish. You will have to really screw up to get a sag that way.

6/25/15       #21: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Pdub

Hey Mark, Mind if I ask what gravity feed system you're using with the Cougar? Did you buy the Kremlin one and adapt it? Shop made?
Never seen that before but I want one!

6/25/15       #22: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Pdub,

I put it together myself with parts that I had on hand. I will post pictures next week.

Mark

7/23/15       #23: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Pdub

Hey Mark. Ever get a chance to snap some pics? I really want that setup!

7/23/15       #24: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Pdub,

Well I did remember, but the spray room was a mess and I was too embarrassed to show everyone. I ran into a major issue while finishing, so I ended up spending a lot more time fixing the problem and didn't have time to clean it up. It's in a remote location, separate from my shop, so I can't just run out there to snap some pictures. I will be there Monday or Tuesday and will definitely get you a picture ... after I clean up :-) .

Mark

7/28/15       #25: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Mark V.

Pdub,

Here's the picture of my AAA gravity feed set-up.

Mark


View higher quality, full size image (960 X 1280)

7/28/15       #26: 3M PPS-H/O (high output) ...
Pdub

Doesn't get any simpler than that! Thanks Mark.

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