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Is this "spray booth setup" dangerous?

11/24/21       
JWM14 Member

This is a business use in a residential garage. I feel like it's a death trap and want to have some input before I confront the owner for the sake of his employees. Please lend me your thoughts.

Exhaust fans are cheap home Depot fans placed high. The heater (gas furnace) intake is low to the ground and about 10 feet from the spray area.

Flammable materials everywhere.


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11/24/21       #2: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Mastercabman

Wow!
Residential area?
Is there a filters box/wall?
Fire extinguishers?

Is this a real business place?

11/24/21       #3: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Tom Gardiner

Be aware that by contacting authorities, the owner will likely face multiple violations and fines. He may have to close his business. If you are a neighbour, things might get ugly. If you are an employee, quit. There are far better shops to work in that are desperate for workers.
The trade is full of cut rate shops like this and should not be tolerated.
And yes, one careless cigarette and that place will go up in flames (you just know that the finisher smokes).

11/24/21       #4: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
JWM14 Member

Yeah, it's a sticky situation. I'm keeping this super anonymous because I care about the business owner-- he is a good person, but I am afraid he is just unaware of the actual dangers and his employees don't know any better.

More context. They are a residential painting company. They use this space for prefinish of trim and cabinet doors. They use hybrids mostly, but also spray solvent based product.

I am a cabinetmaker and recently did a clear lacquer ( they don't do CV finishes) bathroom vanity for them, and a paint grade kitchen. I had to drop off and pick up the parts, and I was blown away by what I saw.

I want to take ownership of this, but I fear he is dug in on his belief that it's fine. He owns multiple LLCs under a holding company, so I suspect this rental property (the adjacent home is rented out to a tenant) is under its own LLC under the holding company.

I fear for an explosion with his employees working in there during a solvent based job. If that were to happen, I do believe his "Limited" Liability will be non protective due to gross negligence. He could be sued substantially, and hit with every violation, back dated for years).

I have been around legit high end spray booths and knowledgeable personnel running them my whole career. But I am a woodworker so my opinion isn't as heavy as the painters from his perspective. And I want to professionally and tactfully approach him, explain the dangers for business fines and the potentiality of harm or death for his employees.

Yes, one of them is super old school and smokes. Not sure if he smokes in the space, but there was a butt sitting on top of one of the solvent 55 gallon drums.


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11/24/21       #5: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Tim

Stupid is as stupid does. Reminds me of a time I was on a job site and an installer was using a tablesaw freehand with his hands. Made me so nervous I had to leave the premise until he was finished.

11/24/21       #6: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Mastercabman

Ha!
It's ok now!
I do see a fire extinguisher!

ALL GOOD!👍

11/24/21       #7: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Tom Gardiner

I don't think he's a good guy. He's got his own ass covered through LLCs but he provides no health and safety for his employees if they are indeed employees. More likely cash and no paper or benefits.
What other violations are there? Waste disposal, tax avoidance?
I have no sympathy.

11/24/21       #8: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Hen Bob Member

The 55gal Drums of solvent are especially dangerous. I had a fire inspector explain to me just how much ground surface one of those will cover. Let alone 3 drums
Doesn't the fire inspector do an annual walk through? or is the shop that under the radar?
Maybe have a frank and honest conversation with the shop owner about how dangerous this really is..

Good luck

11/24/21       #9: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
JWM14 Member

Thanks, Hen Bob.

I am preparing for a conversation with him. If anything ever happened to anyone, I couldn't live with myself for not saying something.

I just want to do as much homework as to all of the consequences so that I. Able to effectively influence him. I do believe he is completely unaware of how sketchy it really is. I don't think he has been there himself in I don't know how long. The employees may just be grinding it in deeper and deeper into a death trap status. The grills on the exhaust fans are completely caked over and barely any air flow is getting through it.

I figure those 55 gallon drums that are each only 1/3 full are especially dangerous, I agree.

But the gas furnace intake at the ground is only 10 feet away from the spray area also. Vapors aren't able to be exhausted out and will reach a concentration point on a large job, and I feel that is the biggest threat as it's an open ignition source.

Thank you for the feedback. I was hoping there might be someone with input on fines. Assuming no death or injury occurred, what kind of fines would he face. Then in the event of an injury or death how that would escalate.

At a bare minimum, I would tell him to never spray solvent based product. But I am planning to suggest he shut the thing down completely and pay to play the game correctly. This will be a telling conversation for our relationship. I don't want to have to turn him in. But if he blows me off, I feel compelled to have some one pay a visit to the premises. Last resort.

11/26/21       #10: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
RichC

Sounds like the whole operation is operating under the radar. Are you being paid as an independent contractor? Just curious. With everyone begging for employees, I suggest you not poke your nose into the owners business and move on.

11/27/21       #11: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Kevin Jenness Member

" I suggest you not poke your nose into the owners business and move on."

It's not just "his business", it impacts his employees and potentially the whole neighborhood. I am in favor of myob as a general rule but a situation like this is a public nuisance. A conversation with the owner as a first step could save a disaster from happening. Dropping a dime to the fire inspector is serious but ignoring the situation could be worse.

When I was starting out I worked in a shop with a finishing setup not quite that bad. I walked out one day when the fumes were especially awful and just escaped being fired. It would have been safer if I had been.

11/27/21       #12: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
JWM14 Member

I own a cabinetry business almost two years old. I took a project manager position with this company and build cabinets for them as an employee. I was more interested in sharing equity with him and running all his cabinetry jobs through my business since his company is a residential painting company with a construction division; being more specialized in fine woodworking is easier to market. People don't call painting companies when they want new cabinets, or custom woodwork, generally. So I've only been with him a little over 90 days.

I saw the spray booth and saw the results of the finish (particulates in the finish) and I took a close examination of the space. I was blown away. I want to influence him to shut it down. At a bare minimum, no solvent based product. But the quality of the finish is super important to me also. So I want to invest in a proper spray booth set up and train an employee to maintain the space and spray custom finishes. Sending an employee off to get official training would benefit the company in numerous ways. Additionally, the winter slows down, so we could use the spray shop for other cabinet shops and contractors as an outsource finishing company.

This is potentially a relationship ending scenario. If he blows me off, I'm done with him. If he is humble and open to hearing me out, then we can work something out. It's on him. I hope that he is just ignorant of the dangers for his employees. And can be influenced to shut it down and invest in a legitimate space-- biting the bullet and paying the cost to do business legally.

11/27/21       #13: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
RichC


Kevin Jenness, I suggest it impacts the whole neighborhood already. Pumping all those solvents into the air from a residential garage shop is probably creating a cancer hazard for children already. As long as the OP doesn't mind a few court appearances, then he can make it his business all day long.

11/28/21       #14: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Adam

It won't just burn down his building. It's a major fire hazard for every other nearby structure.

Those 55 gallon drums are bombs. Doesn't matter how much is in them.

My Dad used to tell a story about him and another volunteer firefighter picking up a 55 gallon drum of acetone and throwing it into the river. The local fiberglass boat shed was burning down(they all eventually do). The firefighters were afraid those drums would burn the village down if they blew up. True story.

11/28/21       #15: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Mark B

If its in a residential neighborhood and in an area with zoning there is no way he's blowing any quantities of solvent out the wall without complaints from the neighbors. Noise and comings/goings alone in a heavily zoned neighborhood would be causing complaints left and right.

I operate in a part of the country where youre of course bound by fed and state regs but unless you get ratted out by a local or competitor you'r pretty much never going to see anyone walk through your door. Numerous small-ish auto body shops around and only a couple cabinets shops and pretty much all the small ones are legit with fans blowing down into a trough of water outside and out the wall. I know one cab shop that has water from downspouts dumping into the trough's of water below two large belt driven whole house fans in the rear of the booth, filters inside only so he doesnt roach the fans/bearings, and he passes with flying colors.

You cant help but to wonder in a place like that if the bulk of what they spray is oil/latex pre-finish stuff. No worse than someone blasting a house (interior/exterior) with an airless.

Putting a bug in the fire marshal's ear is easy enough to do and let the chips fall where they may. You know the answer your going to get from him is he's been doing it this way forever so stop being a whinny baby. At that point when you call enforcement he knows its you, doesnt care about your concern for your conscience, and whatever happens after that who knows.

My shop is not in a zoned area and is a commercial building where I could do anything I want but there are residences around and for that reason we dont spray any solvent, try to keep the noise down to be considerate to our neighbors, and fly by-the-book but even the low end of by-the-book when your not in a ultra heavily regulated area can seem pretty sketchy (like all the ones Ive seen first hand that I mention above).

11/29/21       #16: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Cajun Craftsman Member

Just show him this. This was my friend who lost his life with those kind of fans.

http://https://www.nola.com/news/northshore/article_80dfe652-5bb6-5327-9e11-f393cee89a56.html

11/30/21       #17: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
nicko

The article says that they don't know how the fire started.

nicko

11/30/21       #18: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
masterblaster

there is a whole lot "something" in this thread.
sorry but no good deed goes unpunished. every time!

12/3/21       #19: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Cajun Craftsman Member

Niko - After the Fire Marshal investigated, they hypothesize that he started spraying and realized he hadn't turned his exhaust fan on. The explosion happened when he hit the switch and a spark ignited the lacquer fumes. His son has kept the business going and has one of the most modern spray booths in the area. This is a good reason everything electrical in a spray booth should have explosion-proof enclosures.

Son carries on his legacy.

12/3/21       #20: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
JWM14 Member

Well..
Good news. I met with him and his employees at the space and went over everything with tact and professionalism. No blaming, no getting anyone in trouble. Just stating the obvious hazards and the correlation between safety and a quality finish.

They are doing a deep clean of the space; immediately stopping the use solvent based product; and ultimately shutting it down once they have other outsource options- I am referring them to one I always use almost exclusively.

No one got pissed. Some mild ego resistance in both directions at times during the conversation, but otherwise Mission accomplished!

12/6/21       #21: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Dennis

A cabinet shop can burn pretty hot. Mine burned to the ground last week from a fire that started in an adjacent business.


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12/6/21       #22: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Mark B

Congratulations on being one of the rare individuals that actually follows up a post on any forum with a resolution. Good for you.

Dennis,
Terrible to see and anyone's worst fear. Regardless of trying to do everything right likely many (most) of us lose a bunch of nights sleep wondering if everything was shut/safed off, etc.. Forget about an adjacent business taking you down. Insurance or not, no one hurt or not, its a devastating blow.

12/17/21       #23: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Mike

I 'm just flabbergasted. Coming from being a professional cabinetmaker/professional finisher with a professional spray booth and makeup air system, I can't believe the risk factor that person was doing to not only himself, employees and neighbors. The fact it's in a residential neighborhood is one of the scariest things, aside all of the violations. You could be assured there would be tens of thousands of dollars in fines and possibly criminal charges that could have been put against him and that's before an unfortunate disaster may happen.

I'm glad to hear he wasn't stupid enough to not listen to you and while I applaud your efforts, I don't think I could have been so kind about it. That was an explosion waiting to happen and was likely hours away from happening.

1/27/22       #24: Is this "spray booth setup&quo ...
Rick H

I'm a safety/ environmental manager for a large mill work co. I also finished for many years in my past life. That setup is not only deadly but if the local EPA stopped by he'd have another set of headaches to deal with and they are ruthless! I'm amazed that fan hasn't caused an explosion yet let alone the over spray build up.This setup is something you'd see in a third world country. I spend most of my time in our finish dept. to make sure things are in order so we don't ever have an accidental explosion or fire. Tell him you can buy one of those inflatable spray booths which have the exhaust and filter banks for fairly cheap compared to a real booth. They're around $500 bucks. He needs to do something before he has to call someones wife and tell her that her husband won't be coming home.


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