Total Finishing Supplies

Professional Finishing

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Challenging finish

1/27/22       
Mark Member

I have a finishing project that has figured cherry veneer field with 1/4" mahogany vertical edges and 1 1/4" Mahogany bands at top and bottom. The mahogany bands and edges are flush with the cherry field. These are new panels intended to match a previous panel finish. The new panels are adjacent to the existing panels.
I believe, first, a sealing wash was applied to the entire panel. This was done to prevent the mahogany stain from bleeding into the cherry. Then an alcohol (mahogany) stain was applied to the mahogany edges and bands, and finally a tint was finally applied to the cherry veneer.
I am not sure what the first wash is called, nor do I know what the cherry stain was called.
None of the stains were oil based.
Is this the proper staining procedure, or is there a better way to achieve this?

1/27/22       #2: Challenging finish ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Any photos?

1/28/22       #3: Challenging finish ...
RichC

Most often a wash coat is thinned shellac. But, an alcohol based dye can melt the shellac.

1/28/22       #4: Challenging finish ...
shenendoah

Yeah really, I'm with Bob.

2/3/22       #5: Challenging finish ...
Mark Member

Images posted:


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)


View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

2/3/22       #6: Challenging finish ...
Chemmy  Member

Your correct...A VERY challenging finish.!!
First thing I do is compare the color of the woods on the old panel to the new ones. This usually requires removing a small area from each wood and then touching up and recoating..
That's easy for me, but could be a problem for others. Your pics offer little help, if they had been taken in indirect sunlight they would have offered a clearer representation of the colorations.
That said, once the colors were determined, you will still be fighting the cherry especially, the natural changing of its color over time and ending up with a future mismatch ....I always let my customer know of this in advance and offered solutions if he wanted to go a different route.!
Sealing the wood first when wanting to use dyes as toners/tints is always smart, but keep in mind that applying dyes over any clear coat act as Filters, just like filters for a camera.!! When you stack filters (spraying a singular color) then sealing it in with clear, and then go back and apply a different second dye color over the first sealed color that is stacking.! The colors do not "blend" together as they would if applying dye stain to the bare wood, where, for instance, the first stain was a little to red so you then apply a greenish stain over it to mute or kill the excess red to a desired degree, be fore any clear is applied.
The result is when layering in between coats of clear, you will end up with the last layer, being the dominate color being reflected.!
Try this yourself using a reddish brown stain, then sealing, then applying a yellowish green dye an revealing in your shop lighting. Then take it out in the direct sunlight ( when dry) and you will see the dominate reflection of the color is the yellow green one.! Looks ok in shop light, but as the light changes, the filtering effect is obvious. So as long as the light is the same in your shop as it is where it finally is viewed is the same it will be acceptable.
But lets say its in a kitchen where not only the dominate artificial light(s) are present, but during the day direct or indirect sunlight is also hitting it, there may well be a customer complaint about it.!
That is why I always used the direct layer on layer application approach all applied to the bare wood so the colors would blend and not create the filter problem.!
Make samples until you get the results you want before even thinking about what route you should go.!!

2/3/22       #7: Challenging finish ...
shenendoah

Mark,
This type of wood/color contrast is not that unusual with tables - dining, conference or desk tops. And some cabinets as well are built and finished with a contrasting band against the main field. These are handsome doors with quality veneers and finish!
Chemmy is right re with checking the colors of the new wood as a first step, especially the cherry. I would wet the raw cherry with acetone or naptha - both quick flash solvents - to sense where you need to go to match the existing cherry panels.
- Make a good sized sample board with the cherry field and mahogany band on all four sides - 18" square might be a good size.
- Prep some laid up cherry and separately some mahogany.
- Develop your cherry finish system.
- Develop your mahogany finish system separately. Note that the mahogany appears to be full filled/closed pore.

1. Tape off the mahogany on your sample board.
2. Begin to apply your cherry color system - perhaps only to a wash coat depending on how many color steps are involved. At this point you are only establishing color for the cherry. You may be ' stacking ' as Chemmy notes, and I would suggest that the clear between the color steps - if any, as you might hit it with 1 color application, which I doubt but who knows? - should all be wash coats so your film isn't too thick.
3. That done, remove the tape from the mahogany, and tape off the abutting cherry.
4. Start your mahogany color system. I would use a grain filler over a thin wash coat or double fill on the raw, perhaps dyed wood to help avoid pinholes. As with the cherry avoid getting too a high of a finish/sealer build.
5. Remove the tape off the cherry and clean off any bleeding from the mahogany work. I typically use vm&p naptha.
6. Lightly scuff all and begin your sealing coats to level and to complete the fill of the mahogany.
7. Do your panels!

This sounds complicated and drawn out, and it really isn't. You just need to do your prep samples first. Used to do stuff like this a lot 'back in the day', though admittedly one color(s) system was more typical than not on multiple wood species - such as plain slice in the field and crotch for the banding. Anyway, I am jealous and have fun!!

2/3/22       #8: Challenging finish ...
RichC

By looking at the picture, I'd use cherry and edge the panel with rift sawn walnut. Walnut and mahogany look the same with some age on them. They add some tint to the first coat of clear to orange it up a bit to match the old finish.

2/18/22       #9: Challenging finish ...
Jwar Member

I agree with RichC. It's just aged clear coated walnut/cherry with no stain. Build as such, put the first coat of clear on. Compare. To age it, a drop of 844 BU, and a ml of yellow NGR in a gallon of clear for the final coat should do the trick.

2/26/22       #10: Challenging finish ...
Hakam G

Mix your sealer and add alcohol base color toner , i will give you a trick you will thank me for ....... spray your toner on a square piece of 1/8 inch thick clear glass and let it dry , position it on your new unfinished wood then you will see the color as if you actually toned the wood itself , tweak the color and dial it in on another piece of glass , if you get a match rock snd roll


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Sponsors
    • Unique Machine & Tool
      Industrial Machinery for Door and Drawer Production
    • Carter Products
      Band Saw Guides, Blades, Wheels, Tires, Line Lasers and 2D Projectors, Wide Belt Sanding Accessories, Vacuum Holding Systems and More
    • EX-FACTORY INC.
      Offering New & Used Woodworking Machinery including Auctions & Liquidations
    • Simantech
      New & Used Machinery, Supplies, Tooling, Parts, and Abrasive Products
    • TotalFinishingSUPPLIES.com
      Solutions and supplies from spray tips to spray booths for all your woodworking needs
    • SAMES North America Corporation
      Precision Spraying Solutions From Pumps To Complete Application Systems-Design and Manufacture of Process Equipment Including Airspray, Airmix, Airless, Rexson Dispense, Electrostatic and Powder Coat

    Become a Sponsor today!