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Pre-cat failure

1/10/23       
Jeff G

Website: http://www.woodstylesllc.com

We have a project that was sprayed with a pre-cat lacquer that has since started to fail. I received a call from the client about 6months after the installation of some bathroom and laundry room cabinetry stating that it was developing a powder on the surface. (See pictures) I met a couple of my paint reps at the job and they said they weren’t familiar with such a failure. The powder consistently covers all painted surfaces including the backs of doors etc. They took a door with them two months ago, they were in contact with me a couple of times early on and kept assuring me that they were working on it but it has been silent since, not even returning my phone calls. The client has been remarkably patient but I need to get something taken care of. Looking for ideas of what has happened and the best course of action at this point. I’m considering to pull the cabinets and sand down the face frames, finished ends etc. and just remake doors and trim. That requires pulling countertops and plumbing as well but I don’t like the idea of trying to strip on-site and doubt the success of painting over a failed finish of-course.


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1/10/23       #2: Pre-cat failure ...
RichC

I stopped using pre-cat decades again. Did you record how old the material was when you used it? Pre-cat has a self life. What temperature was your wood, finish, and booth at when you sprayed it? And despite all the hoopla about how good pre-cat is, I've never found it to meet the requirements for moisture resistance like conversion varnish. Is the bathroom adequately ventilated with a good fan that the customer actually uses? If this is going to cost you a lot to fix, I'd install a bluetooth hygrometer and actually record the moisture swings in the bathroom.

1/10/23       #3: Pre-cat failure ...
Jeff G

Website: http://www.Woodstylesllc.com

I would totally agree about using conversion varnish as that’s all we would normally use. We used this pre-cat on this one project while the conversion was unavailable from our supplier… I guess the shortages “strike”again. I actually still have the label, there is no dating on it other than a lot number which doesn’t seem to give a date. I had sprayed it within a few days of purchase. We’re a climate controlled shop so although I don’t have records of that day the temp should be reliable. The humidity level might make sense in the bathroom but perhaps not as likely in the laundry room.

1/10/23       #4: Pre-cat failure ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Jeff, looks like the classic "bloom". Now we need to find out what it is. What was your primer and any other products used in the finishing system? This will help us help you.
If you have a lot number the manufacturer can track down the retain at the factory and check it out.
There are many things that can cause a "bloom". Depending on the type of bloom, some will taper off over time with no effect on the finish system performance, and others can cause a finish failure. This is why you need to find out what is going on.
Here is a short list of info needed:
Each product used in the finish system, how much was applied per coat and how many coats. Dry time between coats. Did you thin? if so, with what? Did you add anything else to the finish?
Temp of finish room when finishing was done.
Anything you can add will help.
Also call the Reps and make them do their job!

1/11/23       #5: Pre-cat failure ...
Jeff G

Website: http://www.woodstylesllc.com

I looked back at the records and see that we sprayed the project in early January of 2022. So about 9 months passed before I was contacted by the customer. She said that she had been noticing something for a few months but just thought it was getting dusty at first. Google says the temperatures that week were in the low teens at night and thirties during the day. So the heat would’ve been running often I’m sure which typically keeps the air somewhat dry. Thermostat would’ve been at 66-68 probably. I hope the following information will be useful as well:
1) maple sanded to 180
2) used as a self sealing finish, no primer or sealer was used
3) scuff sanded with 220 sponges between coats
4) 3 coats applied with 2-3 wet mils per coat
5) a couple of hours would’ve passed between coats for sure as we sprayed one side at a time and then scuffed and sprayed again
6) we did not thin the product or use any retarder
7) the bathroom and laundry room are two different colors and we completed one color before spraying the second color, yet both areas have the same issue

We also had parts sprayed with clear conversion varnish for the project that have no issues. Obliviously a different product but was sprayed in the same conditions for what it’s worth.

The sales rep seemed super eager to help but said that they forwarded the information and one of the cabinet doors off and haven’t heard anything back. Rep gave me a number to call, which I have several times without any call back unfortunately.

1/11/23       #6: Pre-cat failure ...
Mastercabman

What brand did you use?

1/11/23       #7: Pre-cat failure ...
Adam

You've got a more simple problem than we usually read about on WW.

It's consistently bad on every surface. Only one non modified product was used. Typical correct application.

Precat was known for blushing and delamination near dishwashers.

My guess would be that your product was stored at some point in a freezing situation. Or as other have noted it was very old stock(well over 6 months).

Non the less it sounds like a product failure. Plain an simple.

1/12/23       #8: Pre-cat failure ...
Kevin Dunphy

Website: http://kdunphy.com

Curios which paint and clear?
Turning powder is bizarre, also if the pre-cat is any good stripper not going to work would be a nightmare on site.
Did the pre-cat have a date when it mixed ? if not you would notice problems when you sprayed

1/12/23       #10: Pre-cat failure ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com
Jeff, After looking at your finishing system I don't see any red flags. I would like to know if the product you purchased was from a distributor that adds the catalyst when the precat is sold.
Some precat is catalyzed at the factory and others when sold. If you don't know ask where you purchased it from as I have seen precat over catalyzed or catalyzed with the wrong catalyst from a distributor.
If they sold you bad paint, hold them liable for the cost of rework.
Some manufacturers will never admit to selling a off spec product and only offer replacement finish. The good ones will cover most of your costs.
Knowing you did this job in January is there a chance the product could have reached a very low temp? Left in vehicle overnight or during product being delivered?
One thing I would like to ask, did you notice anything weird when spraying product?
Do you have any of the product left over to run some samples? If so, redo your finish system on wood and on glass.
1/13/23       #11: Pre-cat failure ...
Jeff G

Website: http://www.woodstylesllc.com

Thank you to all of you for your responses. I have been avoiding mentioning the brand as it is a reputable company and I'm trying to be understanding that problems can arise and that it's not a typical characteristic of the company. Hoping that we can work together to solve the problem.

I visited the jobsite again and noticed that the powdery substance almost feels oily or sticky which I hadn't noticed before but much more has accumulated as they haven't cleaned it off recently.

One of the first things I had asked was if there was a chance that they forgot to add the catalyst at the store which they informed me takes place at the factory not the store. My sales rep had to track down the finish for me and drove to pick it up from out of town and then personally delivered it to me. All I can say is that it wasn't frozen when we received it. We had never used this particular product before so I did run some samples. The finish went down well and powdered up nicely when scuffed. I performed some crosshatch tests on it and tested it's scratch resistance which didn't raise any concerns. It didn't seem as strong as our normal conversion but that was expected. The finish still seems hard or "intact" and even looks normal if washed down, that look just doesn't last. There is still some product left in the can but it would be a year old now. I stirred it up this morning and it looks normal... I thought maybe it would've gelled up in the can by now but I'm not very familiar with pre-cats compared to CV.

I will probably move forward with removing the cabinets, sanding down what can be done easily and remaking the non-flat work. I will also try to reach higher up the corporate ladder to see if I can get anywhere.

1/13/23       #12: Pre-cat failure ...
Mastercabman

Jeff
I understand you don't want to bash a brand by not mentioning the name but it could help if you tell us
Maybe some of us here has/is using the same brand and can help
And believe me there's nothing you can say that will hurt them
After all you are having issues with it so you are free to give an opinion about any products
That's why we have the internet!!!!

1/13/23       #13: Pre-cat failure ...
Bob Niemeyer  Member

Website: niemeyerrestoration.com

Jeff, You mention that you made samples. Are they doing the same thing? I would wait it out some about doing rework if the finish shows no signs of failure and your customer is understanding.
If your open to try something here is a suggestion. Purchase some Konig KO542 Furniture cleaner.
I fixed a huge job that had the same symptoms and was a precat finish that had a catalyst bloom, white powder that kept coming to the surface. We cleaned 14 floors of woodwork in a office building with the KO542 and it never came back.
I would give it a try.

1/16/23       #14: Pre-cat failure ...
Jeff G

Website: http://www.woodstylesllc.com

Thank you Bob, I will have to look into that cleaner and see if it can help in our situation too!

1/26/23       #15: Pre-cat failure ...
Redfish Matt Member

I cannot say I've ever seen a precat (or any finish) fail like this.

My first thought would be that someone has over-catalyzed it. Is there an odor of any sort? Usually something that's over-catalyzed would leach a slightly oily patina and have a noticeable chemical odor or even cat-piss odor.

My other thought is perhaps this product had grossly too much pigment in it and not enough cellulose as a binder. But this is just a wild guess.

2/10/23       #16: Pre-cat failure ...
Kevin Dunphy

Website: http://kdunphy.com

Curios how you made out ?
But I would change clear and stay away from precat and using paint then clear just use paint not 2 different products .

I never had that happen using lot of water and conversion varnish from Campbell , but used one new precat from a new company nightmare never called them back .Thats the big nightmare failure

There lots of time I thought I put to much conversion version on and people called me a year later loving the finish and giving more work when they thought I was expensive .

Last no shop has perfect 72.5 degree tempute and 32.65 humity pick a product with a track record .

2/11/23       #17: Pre-cat failure ...
Jeff G

There was only product used in this finish. The manufacturer finally responded and said that it was caused by excessive build. They say we must’ve sprayed between 8-23 mils per coat which is ridiculous. We tried spraying some test pieces at those mils and it was a sloppy mess. We’re repairing/replacing the work and moving on. Luckily it’s not a huge project and hopefully we can stick with our normal products now that availability is no longer an issue.

2/12/23       #18: Pre-cat failure ...
Adam

Jeff,

Please post the manufacturer & product. There’s no point in protecting them at this point. It might save someone on WW time & money. It’s a shame they don’t stand by their products.

2/13/23       #19: Pre-cat failure ...
Adam

Jeff,

Please post the manufacturer & product. There’s no point in protecting them at this point. It might save someone on WW time & money. It’s a shame they don’t stand by their products.

2/13/23       #20: Pre-cat failure ...
JeffA

AWI will do testing on failed products. Since they are neutral I would think that their opinion would be trusted. Not sure of the cost but it may help with a claim against the coating supplier.


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