Had one of my reps come by today and we ventured off into different finishes. We currently spray ML Campbell Hi Performance whites, MagnaClaw primer, MagnaKlear or MagnaMax pigmented. The water based finishes sound like they have come a long way-this rep sells Envirolac. Anyone have any thoughts on switching to water based finishes? We have occasionally used water based finishes. The last time was several years ago. It was always at the request of a client who had sensitivity to lacquer based odors and such. For those with experience do you use it without the catalyst? I like the shelf life that comes with non catalyzing material. Thanks for the feedback.

Your same question started in the late 1980s. They have come a long ways since then!

I suppose the follow up to your comment RichC is have they come long enough to use as a general finish including in kitchens and baths

Absolutely yes

Absolutely yes. If they hadn't improved it in 40 years, it wouldn't still be on the market!

We've been using MLC waterborne finishes almost exclusively since about 2005. Before switching brands, why not try some of the MLC. Your rep will probably give you a couple of cans.

Adam
Well that is really a different story. We have been buying ML Campbell products from the same supplier for 20 or so years. We have been generally well treated and all. A few years back our salesman flaked out and was in and out of some treatment type place and finally just vanished. So now we don't really have a source that is easy to get a hold of to get info, help solve our problems, etc. It sort of pissed me off that they haven't felt the need to get a new rep. There is someone at an other location we can reach out to but they are busy dealing with their own customers, etc. So, all that being said, this is partially a reaction to the idea that we have no rep so if we switch to a new type of products we would need a rep.
Adam what was it that made you switch to waterborne, especially that far back. We have used Aqualante a few times (probably that will tell you how long since we used waterborne) and some General Finishes when pushed by a client request but was always told the material wasn't quite ready for prime time.

I switched a year and a half ago to waterborne
Mlc solvent based like WVP,Turino,Krystal has been my go to coating
I now use MLC arroyo 1K
I also like to use Renner when Im refinishing cabinets on site
Renner has a top coat (765) that can be applied thick without any sags
It is called "super hang"
Works well for verticals
Arroyo is a little thin compared to Renner so you need to be more careful
I still think that CV has a better feel when it's all done but waterborne is getting better and better
But so far I think Arroyo is as close to CV
I would talk with your mlc representative. And try it

Rich,

I was trained(5 years) in a high end shop that only used solvent. Several of my coworkers also had spent time in their careers at the Guild Custom guitar shop. It was obvious that the chemicals were causing them damage. I also had a ton of experience working on wooden & fiberglass boats. Likewise saw a lot of damage in the older guys who worked on boats.

I'm also one of those people that is willing to invest a bit of time in different products if I see a real possible benefit. I was willing to spend the time to learn how to spray waterborne so I wouldn't have to spray solvent. Back then I bought about 10 different cans from the best manufacturers and did test panels.

There are no rules. You can use solvent pigment on cabinet doors, waterborne on drawers, and 2K on countertops.

There have been numerous threads on WW about drawers stinking for years from CV off gassing. What would be the argument for using CV vs a high quality waterborne on a drawer? It's not dry time, durability, or any other property. Maybe equipment. Buy another spray gun and save your health.

Water base finishes have surpassed solvent based finishes. The water base coatings like Envirolak, Renner, Centurion, Sayerlack, ICA and others will blow the doors off of your ML Campbell products.

You can use a lot of these products as a single component or you can add a hardener to them, you will find some of them have a really short pot life when used with a hardener which is a pain.

The other thing you will notice is the cost, they are more money than your lacquer.

I sprayed boat loads of ML Campbell and Becker Acroma, over the years, I started spraying ICA, Envirolak, Renner and Sayerlack as these are available in my area, I would never consider going back.

Only lacquer i use is precat and only water base i use is 2k or 1 k poly for wood substrates.
depends what location and depends what kind of budget and etc.
for example never use lacquer for bathroom and wet locations.High traffic areas or table tops.

There is nothing to do with company names here.only the type of finish and formulas.For me 2k poly gives you way above protection than lacquer or conversion varnish.It is bullet proof. take the hammer and try to beat after 3 day. Get some small samples and test and see your self.

The only thing will drag you is the equipment and dry time frames.If you don't have a proper spray booth and drying station you will regret.Especially in winter.
About Health problems and issues,You have to take great precaution while spraying and using. Waterbase is not any less harmful than lacquer or conversion.Trust me on this.Protect your body and lungs including eyes while using catalyzed materials.Full poison !

I don't think anyone would argue that water based finishes have lower emissions than solvent. I know that the feel off the line with water based can feel a bit tacky or not as slick as compared to solvent but over time like a couple of weeks they feel the same in my opinion. What really hits me is when Adam can claim that people he knows are 'damaged' because of using solvent products. And he just knows for a fact that it's the solvents. I'm sure that everyone he knows that is experiencing 'damage' live a pure and healthy lifestyle. Like eating the absolute best, don't over indulge in alcohol or smoke. Don't go thinking that water based finishes are any safer than solvent. There are water soluble solvents in many water based products like butyl cellosolve and alcohols. And the formaldehyde release in catalyzed finishes is just as high between the two. We all react differently to products that we come across in our lives. Let's not just put a blanket claim out there saying it's because of 'this' when you really don't know. Just my opinion.

Good morning.
I have a question for you professionals. We have been spraying Duracoat from Mohawk. My Kansas City supplier deals with Mohawk finishes. They offer a line of water based products called Enduragreen I would like to try. We typically spray with an airless. We also have a Sata jet 1000 cup gun. I have a kitchen to sand down and refinish. They recommend using the Enduragreen brushing urethane on the cabs inside the house and a Enduragreen Acrylic clear top coat to spray the doors with at my shop. What are your thoughts? They say an airless is not a good choice to spray water based materials out of. I think Titan and Graco offer a low pressure fine finish tip for this. Made to spray with the airless turned down to a low setting. If the cup gun is best what size tip would you guys use. I am not a professional finisher but try to do my best. Thank you for all of your help.

Tracy,

I am just wondering why they are saying you shouldn’t use an airless sprayer?

Most of the airless sprayer manufacturers that I know of make fine finish tips. I have sprayed lots of water base coatings with an airless sprayer with amazing results.

Some of the social media folks are also now adding a separate air supply to an airless sprayer and using AAA guns like the Kremlin Xcite. When I say social media I am talking of people with full fledge finishing shops doing boat loads of work.

I think with most products you can get good results with most equipment, it just may take a little experimenting.
I own Sata and 3M gravity cup guns, airless sprayer with a Graco gun, pressure pots with various guns, CA Technology pumps and my favourite is my Kremlin air assist stuff, but I wouldn’t be afraid to spray most coatings with any of it.
Sometimes if the coatings are thick and you are using a gravity feed gun it is nice to get a set up that adds pressure to the cup.

Anyways all the best.

JeffA,

"I just know"? The people that I "know" are good friends & coworkers of mine. I only "know" what they have told me. I'm not assuming anything. Have you ever met someone who worked for a couple of decades in a fiberglass boatbuilding shop that used polyester resin, styrene and acetone on a daily basis? Or people who worked in a shop for years spraying or around guitars that were sprayed with lacquer. I'm not talking about one or two people that I've met.

I "knew" that I didn't want to start my career in the same manner. Those people warned me to always use the best safety equipment and to avoid the solvents as much as possible. Off gassing CV and cleaning up with lacquer thinner tick that box.

Given the choice of working with waterborne products or solvent, I chose to avoid the solvents as much as possible. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I was asked a direct question and I answered it. Personally, after 30 years in those industries, I don't believe my health has been affected in a meaningful way. I also have been very careful to use the best safety gear I could afford along the way. Frequent changes of respirator filters, forced air when spraying iso 2K urethanes, proper spray booths & ventilation. Be safe.

I would agree with others, you need proper PPE and ventilation equipment. Spraying water base is just as dangerous to your respiratory health as spraying solvent based. Some manufacturers say it may even be worse in the atomized stage while spraying.
Be safe out there.

I've been spraying finishes for close to 50 years...and still do on 5-6 days per week basis. I work in a smallish but prosperous area. I spray solvent based 2k urethane on restuarant and homeowner tables or other high wear/ moisture prone areas. For kitchen/bathroom cabinets, store fixtures l have been using a European WB 2k for both clear and pigmented finishing. I really like the less fumes and the finished product. I've all but quit spraying CV and life in the shop is better without it. Another benefit is both the excess solvent /wb 2k polys dry to hard mass that can be taken to the dump in my area where as the post pot life CV is expensive to expose of.