Thank you in advance. We have been in business for 22 years and have never had any real finish failure issues. I have shot pre-cat and conversion varnish but about 15 months ago switched over to WB due to health reasons after starting to get sick shooting the solvent. We have been shooting Chemcraft products. We have not had any complaints from clients on this issue but recently got done with my own home and 4 weeks after white paint being finished (3 weeks after install & 2 weeks after having moved in) I am getting lifting 1/16"-1/8" off the panel where it meets only the rail and only one medicum to large doors (so far?). It looks like a heavy bead of caulk until pressed on when it then cracks. There are a lot of large doors so I'm seeing this on probably 40 doors in total. I do not see it where the panel meets the stiles. We do caulk where the stiles & rails meet the mdf panel on paint grade doors (DAP white caulk that we have used for decades).

Product we are shooting is one coat of aquaprime, sanded aggresively with 320 with random orbit and by hand where the panel and stile meet, caulk (wiped out with baby wipes), topcoat with Aquaset, sand pretty aggresively with 320 on random orbit and then resanded with a super find sanding sponge) and topcoated one last time with Aquaset (20 sheen). We do use a conventional airless with a 413 tip. I reduce with 5% water.

Doors test at 6% moisture content today. I did not test them when they came in (outsourced) but have in the past from this company and they consistently 6-7%. Never had anything higher than that from them.

There is a wood stove that has burned consistently for two weeks in the house. But they do test at 6%. And I only see it on medium & big doors (anything 30" or taller). Nothing on drawerfronts or sink base doors.

I'll bias the jury pool here. Using the airless we tend to put on heavier coats. I do not know the final mil coverage (guage is being shipped now). We do sand very aggresively between coats. Usually when I see moisture related movement in finish it is where the panel meets the rail. But everything tests okay moisture wise. My gut tells me without having looked at it under a microscope that its both topcoats and its separating from the primer and caulk. Just an educated guess after having shot so many tens of thousands of doors.

What's throwing me is only the top and bottom where it meets the rails and nothing on the stiles. If it was spray technique I'd be seeing it on the stiles on the large drawerfronts due and I am not. Thoughts? Wild guesses? Much appreciated and happy new years-

My opinion is you used too fine of grit on the primer and the viscosity may not be right if you are getting something that looks like caulk where the parts meet. Another idea is too heavy of wet film thickness. All items that should be answered in the application guide from the manufacturer of the finish.

Rich, 320 grit too fine? I've been using that for decades for primer and sealer coats without an issue. In facts it's course enough that I see the scratches through the first topcoat. I tried 220 because aquaprime sands like concrete but there is no hiding that scratch pattern.

Too much wet film thickness. Why just where the panel meets the rails and only on the bigger doors?

Thank you-

Baby wipes?!??

Also could you post some pictures of the lifting?

Baby wipes....by far the best way to remove caulk from that seam after applying. Life changing vs wetted rag.

My shop is about as remote as you get in the lower 48. My wife reminded me that we had run out of caulk. Our job was large enough it was split and went the finish room in two separate batches. All the large doors and all the small doors. I think (50% chance?) Red Devil caulk was used on the large doors as DAP was 80 miles away on a snowy weekend. I'm hoping, praying and pleading that is indeed the case but I even tried digging through the dump trailer to find the garbage bag with those three packages of used baby wipes to see the caulk tube and couldn't locate it to confirm but I'm going to hold out hope. We've probably had ten jobs that received white paint over that 15 months and like I said no complaints from clients. This reared its head on us after 4 weeks so I can't imagine I would not have heard anything but my heart missed a few beats when I saw this this morning and started poking around on all the doors. I had to put on my detective hat and figure it out ASAP. I should have known better than to swap in another product but if you have ever built a new house (let alone 2 and a shop in six months while working fulltime...) you know the mad rush at the end.

Thank you. Any additional thoughts are welcome and appreciated-

Anonymous

I would be cautious using baby wipes
It has ingredients that might not be good with some coatings
But I know what you're going to say
"I've been doing this for a long time and never had a problem "
I got it!
FWIW
I have a grandchild that is allergic to baby wipes
Just saying

320 g is too fine for the primer(no more than 220).You know the purpose of primer as you have been doing this for all your life.

Airless sprayer and %5 reduction without checking the mill thickness.Bet too much paint on the surface.

No need to use any kind of caulk if you are using sufficient amount of glue on the stile and rail joints for cracking issue and proper finishing for the bridging issue on where the panel meet the corners .Always a gamble using any type of caulk.

You have been doing this all your life but company's change their formulas any time they want.maybe your products work with your schedule now but will not work a week later.trust me on this. Check in with your rep.
Here in California they do this all the time and even a simple denatured alcohol is forbidden to use now :) LOL.

The way you have described what you are seeing, and I read and re-read it a few times, it sounds to me like something is moving. Like the panel is expanding. Is this also happening on the backs of the doors? In the same area when it happens on the front? And let me clear, I know absolutely nothing about building doors. The other question I have is when the doors are finished, are they vertical or horizontal? If horizontal even though you don't think it could be application it could. Those areas are where potential paint may slightly sag into or over and just be enough to cause a finish defect but I'll agree that may be a stretch.

Baby wipes...always use the same brand and yes never had an issue. I can only control what I can control. I should have controlled the caulk. My bad. Just got in a hurry and used what was convenient. But I can't plan for everyone's formula changes. I can only plan the best I can and react. Water for goodness sakes is going to have different chemistry each time.

Mill limits...does anyone actually follow these on paintgrade work? I find their mill limits to not hide on white. We sand AGGRESSIVELY and I'm going to disagree on the 320. Anything more than that you are seeing the scratch marks and you are going to have to apply more finish (already fighting mill limits) to cover those. I'm sure it depends on whose 220 and 320 you are using but 220 leaves me with a nightmare to cover. 320 with a random orbit I have never had adhesion issues. These doors where 320 was used I have no adhesion issues. this is that 1/16-1/8" right up against the frame on a 5/16" shoulder shaker door that is hard to sand aggressively.

I thank you all for your wisdom. Graciously, I'm just not buying the 320 or babywipes issue. I know I'm always flirting with mill limits but just can't get a product out the door that meets the look and feel I need without flirting with it. I do know most of our primer is sanded away leaving just enough to be white and much of our first topcoat is. So total mill limits I don't think is an issue. Possibly one coat mill limits on the final coat. But then you should see this issue elsewhere also. I'm not getting mud cracking or other issues like you would see with a WB where it's piled on too heavy. So I think it was the caulk.

Jeff, I ran that through my head and I do think movement has played a slight part but the minority aspect. There isn't enough movement to say see mdf on the backside of the door and all reveals look good. But usually when there is movement that is where I see it- where the panels meet the rails and not the stiles (exception being raised panel doors).

The large drawerfronts that are finished horizontal are not doing this at the stile (same placement as a rail on a door when sprayed) so I do not think it is spray technique. But I did run that through my head.

It gets tough helping people that discount every suggestion given. Yes, many finishing materials don't melt into previous coats like the old lacquer. So they need a mechanical grab to previous coats. Use a foam backed 220 pad, or break the new sheet of paper backed abrasive on the edge of the bench before going at the primer. Use a cork or felt backed block under the abrasive. Quality of abrasive used makes a difference too. Cheap paper can have a few pieces of oversized abrasive and that scratches.

I don't know how to aggressively sand, especially with 320 grit. You should be completely sanding the substrate, no shiny spots. Our typical finishing schedule is sand wood with 150grit, prime, sand primer with 240grit, 1st topcoat, sand 320 grit, 2nd topcoat

I agree with you that you can see 240 scratches thru the topcoats. But, you are burying the 240grit primer scratches under the first topcoat. After that 320 will remove enough of the sheen to give a good bond between the topcoats.

If we are doing a really high quality white finish on doors that have some molding, we will do 2 coats of primer. You get better coverage in the topcoats. The primer is cheaper and you can fill defects in the primer coat with a spackle type filler.

Baby wipes. They would not be my first choice, but whatever floats your boat.

We've been gluing mdf or ply panels in doors for 35 years. Never had to caulk a door unless someone made the panel sloppy.

As to why you are getting movement in the rail and not the stile. It may have to do with the door construction. Some people use space ball type spacers. Some people pin(or a dab of glue) the panel to the center of the rail which allows it to float a bit. We simply make the panel the correct size and glue it to the stiles and rails.

Ask the manufacturer about the construction. You are stuck with them, but it might answer some questions. Don't tell them the finish is failing.

Lots of relevant suggestions. I also switched to Chemcraft aquaduro, a bit of a learning curve from urethane. Im guessing that your panels have shrunk back pulling away from your rails. Being a new home your humidity would have been really high from concrete, framing material, ect all curing and drying out. It has probably taken the 4 weeks with your wood stove going to stabilized at your current (lower) house humidity. Makes sense that its only noticeable on longer mdf panels where there is increased movement due purely to size. Is there a definitive line behind the bubbled paint where the panel would have once been in the dado of the rail? Strange that its only your kitchen that is affected and not your clients? Were your clients homes new builds as well? Contrary to your issue, I recently heard of a painter that applied three coats (in one day) of water based paint to solid pine doors with raised panels and the panels expanded and bowed and cracked the cope on the stiles. The water has to evaporate unlike a chemical that flashes off, so too many coats in a short timeframe can cause issues as well. If you read the Chemcraft Aquaduro literature they want you painting the same day you sand, which makes me wonder if its not just a mechanical bond.
Regardless, its a terrible feeling that you must have and Im sure we can all relate.
-Kurt.

I've had this happen before. For me, it was because I was spraying the junction of the panel & stile/rail to ensure coverage in the inside corner, and then spraying the entire door in a sweeping fashion. I was getting too much paint in that junction, and it was shrinking excessively. I went back to pre-spraying the perimeter of the panel before assembly, and then simply spraying the completed door in a sweeping fashion, and the problem went away. Hope this makes sense, and helps.

I found the urethane Chemcraft held better vertically and on edges than the water based, so can relate to inside corner buildup. Common practice to spray panel before assembly on solid wood floating panels…. I glue my panels to the frame on paint grade doors since I used 12mm baltic ply, not solid wood. To aid in my application and avoid corner buildup I just apply three coats to door fronts with the WB. Yes, more time and paint and not for everyone…. Just works for the small amount of custom cabinets I make and my time and material is factored in to cost.
-Kurt.

I always appreciate an update so here is mine: I had time to take these off today, clean up the damage with a razor blade, 320 sand the damaged area followed by a sanding with firm fine sanding sponge, then a super fine sanding sponge and then caulked and resprayed.

I can see with almost certainty it was a combination of the different caulk used and the wood stove. Probably would have been okay with one or the other but in combination they were an issue. This brand of caulk became extremely hard and brittle. I bet it had a higher silicone content also would be my gut reaction after studying it drying (the more silicone in the caulk the longer what's sprayed over it stays wet and then shinny). Doors tested at 6.0 moisture content today. They had probably snuck up to 6.5-7 before painting them as they sat on the exterior north wall of the shop for 2-3 weeks waiting on the finish room to open up. Only doors 30" or taller were effected and appeared the rails shrunk 1/32" on each max but enough to cause a break in the paint and caulk. Excellent adhesion everywhere else on the door.

I'll be sticking with DAP 40 year white caulk even more religiously. It's usually stocked high and deep but the millwork in this house (not something I normally do) ate through my stock and always short cuts will sometimes bit you straight in the keister. Should of made the trip for more DAP.

Thanks for your insights.

I would guess that there is some contamination that that joint. Not sure I'd chemcraft is self sealing but if you have lifting wrinkling on a cabinet. Something bad is underneath that finish.
Caulk the putty you may use to fill the joint
Or incompatible components primer to paint.