Total Finishing Supplies

Professional Finishing

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Precat Surfacer Failing

8/15/24       
John B

I'm helping a friend of mine with a current finishing issue that we're having a hard time figuring out. He finished a entire kitchen about 2 years ago with a precat surfacer followed by Sherwood Waterbased topcoat. This was a system recommended to him by an SW Tech rep and another sales rep. He has had multiple jobs have adhesion and flaking/chipping issues. Some of the jobs have been very minor and in high impact areas where we didn't chalk it up to failure as much severe abuse form the homeowners.

This current one however, while having flaking/chipping issues in some expected areas near the sink and lower drawers, has equally as many issues on less used portions of the cabinets. He used MDF paneling with maple frames, the MDF portions are all completely fine and intact with no flaking. While we will be fixing the issue and know how to move forward, we still are trying to figure out why this has/is happening. He did 2 coats of the surfacer, followed by 2 coats of the topcoat. Sanded prior to application and in between topcoats with recommended grits. Also for what it's worth, the flaking areas are both the primer and topcoat having adhesion issues. Have bounced a lot of ideas around but looking for any insight if someone has had a similar issue or good explanation. Have a lot more information as well so any follow up questions are encouraged.

8/15/24       #2: Precat Surfacer Failing ...
Yavuz

Recommended this recommended that.This is like asking to a Home depot worker what kind of paint is good for ceiling :))
Sorry for your trouble really i feel you but at the end of the day i blame the finisher or builder.It is his responsibility and responsible from final product.
i never and ever follow a rep or anybody who recommended or suggested.
get a gallon of what ever you will use and check your equipment compatibility.
test on a panel again and again.use on your shop or home or relatives for a year of period at least and see whats going on.At least this is what i do.I am a cabinetry guy.Paint guys knows better than me but you never can be enough careful using products unknown to you.
Paint company's change their formulas frequently and its a serious problem.
Since there are many variables what failed here your best bet is to call and get that rep who recommended and let him deal with his problem.
Good luck !

8/16/24       #3: Precat Surfacer Failing ...
SteveL Member

I had an issue with this years ago with pigmented precat. It turned out I had sanded the wood too fine and probably with too dull of sandpaper. Pigmented wouldn't hold on these burnished surfaces. Since then I only sand to 120 grit which leaves something for the paint to grab. I also use conversion varnish now and haven't had that issue again.

8/16/24       #4: Precat Surfacer Failing ...
Chemmy

Coating reps are the reason I went back to school to take organic chemistry, and then in the field of Decorative and Protective coatings chemistry.!! Reps cost me thousands of dollars worth of re work, in the first couple years of my first business, and all I got in return was free replacement materials...period...!!! The labor and overhead, were not covered.!! Unless your a big user and I mean a million or more a year, they won't cover all the expenses they really cost the finishing company.!! As for now, if you want a proven system, I would talk to local finishers that work at well established companies to find out what their using that has proven to be a good reliable system, and go from there.!!

8/17/24       #5: Precat Surfacer Failing ...
Frank Garrido  Member

Website: http://www.cabinethero.com

All are excellent responses to the reality of reps advising finishers or those in the trade of what is recommended to use. At the same time, there might be some reps who know coatings on how to use them best, its not worth totally relying on that info, without doing your own proper testing for quality and strength. As Yavuz mentioned, It really is your responsibility to ensure that the system you are using is a proven system, so that means you have to prove it to yourself, that it works well, unfortunately, that's the reality.
They usually don't know what to say to you when something goes wrong, and to them its just a surprise,
maybe they will comp you a few gallons, which in our world is really amounts to very little compared to all the work that was done.
A lesson to be learned from this failure is the best thing to gain, so it is not repeated.
Find a system that you can be confident that works for you. If you like solvent base you will have to search out and try using coatings that have a good strong primer and are designed to be used with certain top coats. If you do decide to go to the water base, then you will find a lot of products that are actually outperforming solvent-based pigmented finishes.
There are a lot of options out there.
I can only recommend what has worked for me. So far pre-cat was great for a while, but then Conversion Varnish was even better, but now I find catalyzed water base to be the best.
Coatings are evolving, formulas do change so keeping up with it and pivoting to use what is best will always fall on you.

8/18/24       #6: Precat Surfacer Failing ...
Adam

I read the spec sheets for the precat surfacer. It makes no mention of using a waterborne topcoat. It only specifies a solvent topcoat.

Likewise, I wouldn't trust a rep. Unless, the tech department verbally told me that it is acceptable, I would not waste my time. You would have been better using BIN.

8/31/24       #8: Precat Surfacer Failing ...
Bruce H

I had a similar issue with SW products supplied by the rep. When we had issues we called SW directly and the tech guy's immediate response "that finish combination won't work" I told the rep this and his reply "the tech doesn't work in the real world. I have lots of shops doing this" Our issue was a non catalyzed primer(white) and a catalyzed top coat (also white) The top coat was T77, don't remember the primer. My solution was to call Miller and get a different product. The SW rep no longer speaks to us.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)


  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Sponsors
    • TotalFinishingSUPPLIES.com
      Solutions and supplies from spray tips to spray booths for all your woodworking needs
    • 2Sand
      Abrasive Grit Sandpaper and Sanding Supplies
    • SAMES North America Corporation
      Precision Spraying Solutions From Pumps To Complete Application Systems-Design and Manufacture of Process Equipment Including Airspray, Airmix, Airless, Rexson Dispense, Electrostatic and Powder Coat
    • Carter Products
      Band Saw Guides, Blades, Wheels, Tires, Line Lasers and 2D Projectors, Wide Belt Sanding Accessories, Vacuum Holding Systems and More
    • EX-FACTORY INC.
      Offering New & Used Woodworking Machinery including Auctions & Liquidations
    • Unique Machine & Tool
      Industrial Machinery for Door and Drawer Production
    • Simantech
      New & Used Machinery, Supplies, Tooling, Parts, and Abrasive Products

    Become a Sponsor today!