Message Thread:
Endgrain Inlay
2/18/21
Hi all,
Having a problem with a vanity top.
The designer is asking for an end grain oak inlay to make it look like the wooden vanity top has four wooden legs holding it up with through tenons.
The rest of the top is oak veneer on marine ply.
The size of the inlay is 3.5x3" square, 1/4" thick.
On the sample top, the inlay started cracking and warping up.
It was only finished on the top, so do you guys think that sealing on all sides before install would prevent that the warping? would going 1/2" prevent it? 3/4"?
Do you think it's an issue of warping up, or expansion and contraction issues?
We would prefer not doing an end grain inlay on a vanity top, but that isn't an option unfortunately.
View higher quality, full size image (5760 X 4312)
View higher quality, full size image (5760 X 4312)
View higher quality, full size image (5760 X 4312)
2/18/21 #3: Endgrain Inlay ...
It looks like your solid oak end grain inlay shrunk and then cracked, most likely because it wasn't dry enough. Making them thicker won't solve the problem. I'd try making them thinner and make sure they're dry. Also, maybe try epoxy instead of a water based glue, which may add moisture to a porous end grain inlay.
2/18/21 #4: Endgrain Inlay ...
Kris:
Way too thick. What you might try is to cut the end grain as you did before but 1/8" thick and epoxy it to a piece of 1/4" Baltic birch ply, with a veneer backer as balance, and then run it all through a widebelt sander with the end grain up until the end grain is close to veneer thickness, and then inlay that into your veneered top. Use a waterproof glue to adhere the inlay into the top.
Designers!!!!! (screamed like Capt. Kirk screaming Khan!!!!!!)
Good luck.
TonyF
2/18/21 #5: Endgrain Inlay ...
You've never heard of seasonal wood movement? Buy Bruce Hoadley's book, Understanding Wood.
Understanding Wood
2/19/21 #6: Endgrain Inlay ...
My approach would be to super dry your endgrain inlay (heat, toaster oven, low oven, however you can), leave it as thick as you wish (within reason but a bit thicker wouldnt be bad) because the conventional rules of wood movement as it pertains to veneer dont apply here, and run your inlay with either PVA or Epoxy as normal. Super drying the inlay will mean that the instant it comes out of the heat it will begin to take-on moisture an expand. It will be somewhat like inlaying a compressed dry sponge and as it takes on moisture it will expand into the cavity. This will keep the inlay in constant compression likely holding throughout seasonal movement for eternity.
Being end grain and relatively small the expansion will have zero effect on the top but the small inlay will be forever trying to expand having the best chance of keeping the joints tight.
My approach would be to leave the inlay relatively thick and take it down to the surface with a flushing router jig/lamello lipping planer/whatever you have. At least that way the inlay will stay as flat as possible and allow you to clamp it in place.
Concern with running the end grain inlay very thin would be whatever glue/epoxy you have coming through the capillaries even with non-white oak species.
Just my $0.02
2/19/21 #7: Endgrain Inlay ...
Thanks very much for the responses!
Some great ideas to try out
Really appreciate the help
2/19/21 #8: Endgrain Inlay ...
I see two issues here. One, the shrinkage and cracks and two, poor glue adhesion.
Both can be addressed with an epoxy joint with the caveat that the epoxy will wick up the open cells. Can a filler be added to the epoxy to increase the viscosity?
Last note. Is that a water borne finish? If so it likely contributed to the failure because the end grain would have been an open avenue to the pva glue bond further weakening it.
2/19/21 #9: Endgrain Inlay ...
Thanks Tom
It is a 2k polyurethane finish, and a pva glue.
To be honest, I've never used an epoxy to glue before, but I'm game to try.
2/19/21 #10: Endgrain Inlay ...
Over dry your inlay and walk away. If the endgrain inlay is going to move, shrink, cup, your dead. Come as close as you can to eliminating those and walk away.
We have a good customer that spends with wreckless abandon but for whatever reason buys a good bit of furniture from sh(tholes like Ashleys and Wells. Tables with this same faux element have gaps that will hold a half a teaspoon of cheesy goop that falls off someones fork. Its accepted, and dealt with.
The over-dry inlay will get you closer to something you can sleep with though likely not perfect. Your finish has zero to do with your problems.
Welcome to 2021
2/19/21 #11: Endgrain Inlay ...
At the risk of sounding like a jerk, how is it that you come to do work you do not know how to execute?
I do not mean to call you ignorant or incapable, but these are fundamental properties of wood you can ignore with box work or such. But when you get away from boxes (or whatever is your daily bread), beware. You need to know what you are doing. There might be a reason you have not seen this before.
Was there no one in the shop that raised a hand with this problem? Some wise guy that was being negative and not getting behind whomever's solution this was?
2/19/21 #12: Endgrain Inlay ...
Hi Dave
The full(ish) story is that this is actually a project we were brought into late in the process.
The job was originally meant to be produced in China, but for a number of reasons they decided to bring the project back here, and asked us to step in after design decisions and samples had been made and approved.
The sample above is the one produced by china that was shipped here.
We red flagged the endgrain immediately, but the samples had been approved so we were told to match the construction method here.
The pictures above are actually from the sample from china, we haven't done our version yet, because after a few days in the shop, the inlays did this.
I didn't want to overwhelm the forum with useless details that wouldn't help resolve the issue.
I really appreciate all of the ideas on this.
And I definitely agree, there is a reason we haven't seen this before, and I plan on not seeing it again after this job.
2/20/21 #13: Endgrain Inlay ...
Sounds like a pretty decent opportunity. They clearly got what they paid for. Its crazy the stuff you see when you walk into a bread and butter furniture store now. The things the public are wanting/accepting are completely nuts. But the pricing, when you add in the retail margin, there is no way to be competitive. Good luck, nice to hear about a chance for something to come back.
2/21/21 #14: Endgrain Inlay ...
You have to love failure. It is a great way to see what doesn't work. Especially when it is someone else's failure. Not to wish bad on anyone, but their problem helps our/your solution.
This now makes sense, and you have some good ideas that should make this work. I am of the 3 ply veneer - end grain faces on a straight grain center - camp.
Please post what you end up doing and how you did it. It is the process that is interesting.
2/22/21 #15: Endgrain Inlay ...
Kris:
Epoxy absorption can be an issue on end grain. What you might try is the West System 105 resin, whatever of their hardeners suits your open time requirements, and their 406 Colloidal Silica as a thickener.
Sounds like it might have been easier to just actually mortise a leg through the top.
Good luck.
TonyF
2/23/21 #16: Endgrain Inlay ...
Dont really understand the distain. You have a client that can potentially feed you with decent repetitive work and you can either be a problem solver or a problem finder. Opting to solids and true mortise exposed thru tenon is a guaranteed failure on price and product.
Sucks that as materials advance the boundaries of tradition get pushed (and often pushed too far) but the answer is your business will rely on those connections.
I find the option of a faux tennon disgusting but when push comes to shove and you have an application where it could fly, and you can get paid,.. it is what it is.
We are never going to stomp our feed and dig in our heels and force the country into boutique. Its just not gonna happen.
So you adapt or die. Or get a job somewhere.
2/23/21 #17: Endgrain Inlay ...
Mark B:
My through mortise comment was more tongue-in-cheek, rather than to be taken literally, or to put forth any disdain for those who allow us the opportunity to work on something more challenging than Motel 6 vanity tops.
I did offer up a method that I would use to accomplish the task in question, and that Kris might consider, rather than to endlessly bitch about designers and their designs.
I know that myself, and probably everyone on this forum, has met with a similar circumstance to the one that Kris has, perhaps even on an ongoing basis.
Please don't confuse the verbal hooliganism about designers with disdain, as at one time I worked exclusively for designers, and more than appreciated some of the interesting work that they threw my way, as well as the paycheck that would accompany it.
I also occasionally complain about my wife, but it is more minor venting about the little things that piss me off, rather than having contempt for the finest human being that I know.
Intent and context is everything. Sorry if you misunderstood.
TonyF
2/24/21 #18: Endgrain Inlay ...
No issue with regards to my response was directed any anything/anyone in particular Tony. I think any of us would take the route of a through tenon by default and likely advise the client, though it does have issues of its own with the largest one unfortunately being cost which is clearly why the faux veneer top is on the table.
I wasnt in any way intimating with regards any response. Just moreso that as sucky as it is, this is a situation where the spec'd solution would likely fly just fine with todays consumer with some good practice and get the job paid. The failure in the images seems to be solidly a manufacturing issue (poor practice, pieced end grain inlay, and likely a pretty wet ride back to the states in a container load) not an issue of a 3.5" square end-grain plug in a veneer sheet being a guaranteed failure. After all even the shrinkulator calls out 3.5" red oak with a 5% swing at .003-.006 to the larger.
Apologies if you thought I was referring to your through tenon directly.
2/25/21 #19: Endgrain Inlay ...
Well, some very good news, and maybe slightly dissapointing news for you guys.
Very good news, we talked the client into removing the end caps on this project, which will let us sleep a bit easier for sure.
Unfortunately I probably won't through sampling these different options for quite some time.
I'm interested now, so I'm going to try to do some testing to see what happens, but that's pretty low priority at this point.
I will post my results when I get them for whoever is interested.
Thanks for all the help though.
I really appreciate the advice you guys are consistently able to deliver.
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