Hello all!

The problem we're having is when cutting arched planton frames on our Williams & Hussey, the knife is digging into the inside of the arch when run through the correct direction. If we feed it through backwards, it doesn't dig in, but it does break a lot of the arches. Does anyone have any suggestions? The knives are ground in a Weinig Powermat head, could the diameter difference of the Weinig head and the W&H be the issue? I've ground 1 of the 2 knives slightly wider than the other to assure that they don't get set up offset.

I've attached some pictures. Notice the red arrow on the pic of the full frame, that's where they are breaking off.

View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

View higher quality, full size image (4032 X 3024)

I forgot to mention, the profile is a half round 3/8" thick 1" wide.

My first thought is that you are not controlling the work piece completely as it passes through. Can you provide a picture of the fixture that you are using? The angle of the cutting tool can also contribute to what I see. What is the hook angle of the head and at what grinding angle are you preparing the tool?

Be Safe,

Dr. David Rankin

Good morning Dave!

The fixture he's using is the 2 bearings on 1 side, and one on the other that came with the machine. Due to the fact that the shape is more of an elliptical, it's pretty much impossible to put anything else on it.

Hook angle on the head used to grind the knives was a 20°. We do have a 12° here I can use. Back grind angle is 30° and finish angle is 20° and side clearance is 15°.

Do you or anyone else know if there's an adapter available for the Weinig R960 HSK for grinding W&H knives? We've never had this issue before and have always ground the knives on our grinder in the moulder heads, but this is the first time we've done a profile that the knife cuts the complete profile all the way down to the width.

Thanks!
James

James
I believe the hook angle on a W&H head is 17 degree or at least the cutter head I use to make moulding knives for the W&H is.
On a half round bead the change in hook angle could be the culprit, the closer you get to 90 degrees in the cut the more pronounced the difference in hook angle is noticed.
Is the knife stock you're using corrugated or smooth back? If they are smooth back I would be more than happy to sharpen them in the 17 degree hook angle free of charge, just send me the knives and template, contact information is on my website if you want to try that.
Fyi: I also use a Weinig R-960 grinder non hsk.
All the best
Russ @ MR

James
The bore of my W & H cutterhead is 1-1/2" with a dia of 122mm. What size cutter head diameter on your weinig cutter head for the hsk? That also may play a role in the knife geometry because of the angle it sits on the tool rest.
Just some things to think about,
Russ

James
I just checked my cutter head for the W & H, sorry, it is 23 degrees not 17 as I stated earlier.
I believe the dia of Weinig hsk cutter head is 3.312", that would be a difference of 1-1/2" diameter between the two cutter heads.
What is the hook angle of your W&H cutter head on the machine?

A combination of different hook angles and diameters of the cutterheads on a half round circle may be the issue in my opinion.
Still will to sharpen your knifes for free if you so desire.
Russ

Hey Russ,

We're finished running the job by feeding the pieces backwards, just had to make extra to make up for the broken ones.

Russ, the knives are corrugated. Maybe next time I'll grind them in a 15° head and see if it helps. The diameter of the heads is 90mm, so a little smaller than the ones you use. I was thinking that that was the problem, but if you're using a larger head, it probably isn't, which would lead back to hook angle being the likely culprit.

Is the head you use designed to grind W&H knives, or is it just a regular moulder head? 122mm sounds like it's just a standard spindle head, but is the hook angle special to W&H or is it just what you use normally? I do have a spindle adapter and a 20° 122mm head I could try using next time.

Thanks for your time!
James

James
The head I use is specifically designed for grinding W& H or Shop Fox knives non corrugated knives at 23 degree hook angle.
You most likely never have this problem again except on knives getting close to 90 degree incline and on a tight radius when milling.
Glad you were successful getting the job done
Take care
Russ

Russ,

Is this the head you are using?

http://www.williamsnhussey.com/collections/accessories/products/shaper-h
eads-wh404

We have had this issue before on a poplar symmetrical profile we use that's similar to your PO 1.500"-17 where the top half round ends, but only when making certain radii. Maybe picking up that head would assure no (or at least fewer) future issues.

Thanks again!
James

James
The page 404ed but if it's designed for a W & H it should work just fine.
Russ

I'm really shocked you have not run into this before. I would assume anytime you try and take a partial side cut on an arched moulding you would run into this. If the part is not fed perfectly perpendicular to the face of the tool the tool it would act as if it were narrow.

There are really only two things I've run into over the years we've been running our curves on the WH that cause this problem.

First is the depth of the knife on the inside of the cut. As the wood curves under the WH head the overly deep steel will hit the wood on both the downswing and subsequent upswing of the knives either side of on-center with the low point of the cutter head swing. This causes the scalping you see on the inside of the profile. The solution is to grind a little steel off the point of the knives and then do some hand sanding or separate round over router bit cutting to bring the profile back to final design.

With that being said though if you are grinding the knives on the wrong head then you could be causing the problem by having the steel too deep for the WH. The length from the deepest cut into the steel to the back of the knife needs to be 1 1/2" on the WH. If your setup is resulting in this being greater than 1 1/2" then that is increasing the likelihood of scalping.

While this discussion has spent a good deal of time reviewing the hook angle of the knives I don't think this is the problem unless an incorrect hook angle is contributing to the steel's deep cut to shoulder length being greater than 1 1/2".

The other problem that can cause this is the 3-point bearing guide system being off center from the low point of the cutter head swing. The proper center alignment of the 3-point bearing support is not directly under the center of the cutter head. Rather it is about 1/2" to 1" towards the out feed side of the machine, at the low point of the swing of the steel.

While I will usually look to an overly deep cut on a tight radius as the root of the problem in your case I'd say it's an off centering of the 3-point bearing pinch. That would explain why you get the scalping when feeding normally but don't get it when hand pushing the wood backwards through the machine (we've done this too occasionally over the years on chippy wood). By pushing the wood through from the out feed side you are most likely forcing it slightly off center of your 3-point bearing pinch, and more on-center with where it needs to be under the cutter head.

I took your comment that you were running the mouldings "backwards" through the machine to mean you were feeding them in from the out feed side. I say you are hand feeding because I can't imagine how you could make the cutter head run in the correct direction while getting the feed rollers to run in reverse. If you've managed to sort that out I'd love to see how you pulled it off.

BH Davis

Mike, we have had this issue with one other symmetrical profile, but it wasn't this bad.

BH, thank you for the tip on the roller alignment! As far as running in reverse, yes, we actually spin the motors in reverse and put the knives on backwards. They installed a switch box that reverses the polarity in the motors. We did have an issue with the feed roller coming unscrewed, so we had to loctite it in. If have any more questions on this, let me know and I'd be happy to get an answer for you.

James

James,

If you are running the motor in reverse then you are spinning the cutter head in reverse. The knives would be dragging backwards instead of cutting the wood. I can't imagine that working very well.

Feedback on this?

Thanks,
BH Davis