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My sawdustburner

1/1/09       
steve Member

Website: http://www.cellarworx.org

I'm working the bugs out of my burner as we speak. So far I can burn about 8 hours at best off of 35 gallons of sawdust. I do mix five gallons of green dust in with the dry and it seems to balance the system quite nice. I don't get any flare ups with the way the dust is put in. I'm trying to figure out the best way to burn scrap wood. I am doing this but my temp. skyrockets and actually makes the magic heater glow red. So a minimal amount of scrap can be put in and burnt at one time. Still puts out a nice level of heat. I can't say I trust it just yet but I'm getting closer every time I use it. I do have pics but will post them if this is a popular topic. I will answer any questions about it you may have. Send me an email at steve@cellarworx.org
I have a thermal switch hooked to an outlet that I am going to use for a fan behind the burner to help circulate the warm air into my shop. I'm sure I could blow the air into a small kiln with ease but that's down the road yet. I can't remember where I found the original idea. I just tweaked the plans to my liking and will probably never install another type of heat. No need to. I also mounted a small squirrel cage blower to the side for raising burn temp. if needed. I could go on for hours but I'll see how the responses go. I'm quite impressed with the outcome and feel I should share my results with the next guy. I'll check this forum and my email frequently for any questions. The idea is so simple you'll smack yourself for not thinking of it. Oh, and I'm not limited to just 8 hours because I can just keep adding wood chunks as needed. Not more sawdust though!!! If you add more dust while burning you'll have a good chance of flare up in your face! Don't do it.

1/1/09       #2: My sawdustburner ...
Norb G

I am certain your using a pack type of sawdust burner. I have built one that feeds through a hopper. Like yours no electricity is required only to run the blower the blows heat into the room. I am finding my limits to moisture content that I can burn and how dense the material can be. Email if your interested in knowing more

1/1/09       #3: My sawdustburner ...
steve Member

Website: http://www.cellarworx.org

Yes. I start out by using a piece of 1-1/2 pvc in the center down to the air intake chamber in the bottom of the barrel. The inner 35 gallon barrel and the old lid the inner barrel sits on have holes through them to allow air from the bottom. The air chamber has three inches of height for cleaning and lighting. I mix chunks of wood in with the dust along with whatever else I have around. I've even thrown in fresh cut weeds from weedeating to see if they'd burn. They did but I had plenty of dry dust to do the work. I have other barrels loaded up waiting to go in so it's an easy swap to keep the heat going. I have added a few things since those pictures I added to the project gallery. The top stove pipe in the back had a regular damper to draw the heat down around the inside of the larger barrel once the dust started burning good enough. I replaced this with a 6" metal blast gate that completely kills smoke flow through it and has to exit the bottom one. I'm glad I did this because when I burn straight scrap wood I have to close it off completely otherwise like last night the stove pipe drew way too much and and the flame got away from me turning the pipes in my magic heater cherry. I was forced to open the lid and dowse the fire with a gallon of water. After the smoke cleared and my nerves calmed down I made sure the blast gate was clear of suit and ashes. I couldn't close it before. So I fired it back up and burned the rest of the night. I'm amazed at the heat generated from just a few pieces of wood chunks. The magic heater helps catch heat loss in the stove pipe and also blows across the lid where most of the heat is generated because of direct contact with the flame. I blow air into the air intake chamber with a squirrel cage blower to get the temp up quicker. I seldom use this for sawdust because it messes up the packed dust and doesn't let it burn properly.
One thing I noticed is that when more wet sawdust is used It creates steam and the steam causes build-up on in the stack. So much that it leaks through the seams and looks like tar running down. So I just keep it at about five gallons per barrel and the rest being dry mat'l.

1/2/09       #4: My sawdustburner ...
Pete Moss Member

I saw the picture in the gallery, and I have to say that is the most dangerous thing I have ever seen in a woodshop. I'm sure you have no insurance, because no insurance company would go near such a contraption.

Do you really want to experiment with this in a professional, equipped shop? You have already had one 'close call' - what will it take? Hey, its your shop, your tools, your livelihood, but this looks like a perfect illustration of the old adage 'just because you can doesn't mean you should!"

And the reason the tar runs down the outside of the pipe is because you have the seams running the wrong way. This is fundamental to proper woodburning. So much so that if you don't know that, then there are a probably number of other things waiting to 'show up' in the worst way imaginable! A gallon of water is also a very dangerous way to douse cherry red steel. "Working the bugs out...." hard to believe.

1/2/09       #5: My sawdustburner ...
Norb G

I guess the gallary must be something I must view as a member? I will become one if not please explain how I can get there.

FYI Fire in any shop needs to be min 12 inches above the floor surface. I will get some pics sent out of my unitr later this weekend.

1/2/09       #6: My sawdustburner ...
cwsplinter

Norb G

Go to the Project Gallery. You can view it without being a member.

http://www.woodweb.com/galleries/project/posts/1673.html

1/2/09       #7: My sawdustburner ...
Gerald Ortman

I agree with Pete Moss. While there may be a safe way to build a furnace to do what you want, what you have is a bomb. For fire you need heat, fuel and air (oxygen). You are running a system in which you have way more fuel and heat that you need, your system is oxygen starved. That is how you control it. However if at any time the fuel/heat mass can get ahold of more air.....woosh....very big fire. You have already experienced that. The drum is not meant to be used that way. It is only a matter of time until it rusts or burns through....then you have a very big fire in your shop. (Remember the movie Backdraft...heat fuel and sudden extra air.)

If you have a concrete floor that is able to soak up water, then you can have a steam explosion under the unit if you have no airspace. If you have a wood floor you will set fire to it.

Check your county fire/building regs for chimney clearences and wall outlet requirements. Don't plan on collecting any insurance because you are installing an unregistered heating device. It may not even be legal to do so.

Finally, you are running an oxygen starved system. That means more heat and fuel than can be consumed by the available air. Which in turn means that you are cooking out loads of tars and creosote which are not being burnt because there is not enough air. It amounts to a 'wood still'. When that tar and creosote sees a cooler spot (YOUR CHIMNEY) it will condense out. If it gets to the right temperature up there and it gets a bit more air then you get a chimney fire.

If you want to do this get an outside furnace, set away from your shop. There is a whole art to making those and sending the heat indoors (or to a kiln.)

Trash that bomb.

gto

1/2/09       #8: My sawdustburner ...
steve Member

Sorry I offended you Pete. The stove pipe is run female down because one of the plans has six inch nipples comeing off to start the run. I checked my so called professional installed pellet stove and the seam is down also. The magic heater has the female end down and male end up so we should contact the manufacturer of Magic Heaters and tell them they have it all wrong. Also I didn't throw water on the cherry pipes of the magic heater. The 'fundamentals' of fire fighting says you should extinguish a fire at the base of the flame not on the cherry red stove pipe. The 24 gauge inner barrel base didn't explode when the water hit it. I'll invest in a co2 fire extinguisher for the next time.The flame went out and I worked out the bug in my blast gate that didn't let me shut it completely.

I had a wood burner prior to this 'contraption' and my insurance company didn't cover my shop anyway because of the so called fine dust in the air even with a 2.5 micron dust collector and a seperate 1 micron air filter so I'm without it anyway. I realized what I was getting into the minute I drilled the first hole in the barrel. Thanks for the constructive criticism. Is anyone else out there looking for alternative heat sources and not affraid to experiment? That's all I'm doing. I do have quite a bit invested in my shop and It is at risk with this burner or any other kind of burner. I have had no problems burning sawdust alone and will continue because why not utilize the waste. I'll post updates next winter using the same setup.

1/3/09       #9: My sawdustburner ...
steve Member

G.O.
I should get rid of it or at least put it back outside where it started. The burn through will happen on the removable inside barrel before anything so I'll catch it while packing the saw dust in. It is off the floor and no water made it to the concrete. The outer barrel is three inches off the floor and the inner barrel is another three off the bottom of the outer. But I do see the potential there. Burning just the cutt-off's is what I'm experimenting with now. I just can't let it go. Call me stubborn stupid and it a waste of time but what was once givin to local farms for cow bedding can be used for heat. All risks aside this is a packed sawdust burner and not a solid wood burner. I'm taking the risk experimenting with other fuels to burn in it and I shouldn't be.
Norb
This 12 inches. Is this just for shops and insurance? Or code?

1/3/09       #10: My sawdustburner ...
Pete Moss Member

Steve - You didn't offend me. I was merely appalled at the notion a professional woodworker would consider placing such a thing in a wood shop or any habitable building. I'm all for free heat, recycling, and such, but there is a limit.

It is curious that you are not insured because of the dust in the shop air. So now you are going to have a cherry red surface in contact with that air? My friend, do you have any idea how catastrophic your proposal looks to an observer?

There are accepted, proven ways to burn wood (even sawdust) for heat, and you need to understand that you are not going to uncover the Holy Grail of woodburning - there is none to discover - the science is all known.

I also have done quite a bit of research into accepted, tested and proven methods of burning sawdust, and it is done every day, 24 hrs a day, and all UL approved. I was searching for a way to recycle dust and scrap for heat in a 20,000 s/f shop after the conflagration described below. But the proper equipment used is nothing like your bona fide contraption.

I have seen what happens when the oxygen regulation fails on a home built heater (as GTO mentions). I once worked for a self made man (read: could not be reasoned with) and he decided to build an 8' x 8' x 20' 12" thick concrete box with a 12" x 12" chimney, to burn bundles of kiln dried rippings, dropped in from the top. He added two 8'x8' 1/2" thick plate steel lids on top, that could be opened with pulleys.

I suggested a small fire to see how the draft worked. This only spurred him on to load it up completely (he referred to me a 'college boy'). The fire was set thru a couple of 6x12 HVAC dampers (seriously), and it took off almost immediately. Once the 1/2" plate steel lids curled up and let in uncontrolled oxygen, the thing roared like the space shuttle. Fire departments from all around converged. They wouldn't put water on it, but sprayed down everything nearby to prevent ignition, while evacuating the area all around. The self-made man scurried about, mumbling about how we didn't do something or other correctly, the thing should work. The concrete cracked, the concrete pad turned to powder, the thing was nothing but expensive wreckage. We never mentioned it again.

Working the bugs out, indeed.

1/3/09       #11: My sawdustburner ...
steve Member

Sounds like a bad scene. I'm glad to hear past experiences. That's why I posted this thing. To see if anyone out there that has or is using this type of burner and discuss war stories. I'm going to put links of different burners with the same concept of burning.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/1974-11-01/How-To-Sawdus
t-Stove.aspx?page=2

http://www.repp.org/discussiongroups/resources/gasificatio
n/drew/ww2stove.html

Here are two of them so far. The design I derived mine from I haven't found it yet but will post it when I do.The articles are pretty interesting and worth reading. These have been around for a quite some time. I guess they get their bad rep. from guys like me that test their limits. Curiousity killed the cat.

1/3/09       #12: My sawdustburner ...
Gerald Ortman

Steve

I have no doubt that there are excellent designs that burn sawdust, one way or another. It is the safety factor in your design that bothers me, the sites you refered to also seem inadequate. First of all the materials you have assembled are not sturdy well enginered cast iron or heavy plate but only thin metal drums, assembled on a casual 'let us see if this works' basis. No engineering, no safety testing.

But forget all that. Lets try a thought experiment. A sort of analogy. Take a regular oil furnace. I have had both drip feed and gun types. The fuel is in a tank outside. The fuel is introduced either under gravity or preasure pump through a metering system (a hole or orifice). The furnace has heat and air and the limiting element (of the heat-fuel-oxygen triangle) is the fuel which is metered or regulated. (You can even install regulating sensors that shut off the fuel if the heat is not sensed [no fire sensor] or if the temperature on the output or fire chamber gets too high.) Now let us build, in our heads what you are building, but with oil as the fuel. Now we put the oil storage tank inside the firebox (We will use a smallish one holding 24 hours of oil not one of the big 250 gallon outdoor types. Now we have a fuel tank inside the firebox with say 3 to 5 gallons of oil. We light a fire. The fuel heats up, but it can't all burn at once (if everything goes right) BECAUSE we only let a little bit of air in at a time. We have reversed the earlier oil furnace which regulated the fire by metering the fuel to a furnace that regulates the fire by metering the air. It will work just as well, except that the safety of shutting off the fuel (easy) is replaced by the 'safety' of shutting off the air (very, very hard.) The system, with its chimney is designed to suck in air from any where it can get it, and air is all around us. If your air restriction fails you have a lot of heat and fuel heated to flashpoint just ready to make a BIG fire.

Now substitute sawdust for oil in your mind and you see what the problem is.In your stove you don't have a lot of hydrocarbon fuel ready to flare from volutized oil, you have instead a lot of volutized hydrocarbons from sawdust ready to flare.

There are stoves that are designed to be packed full of coal, wood and (I assume) sawdust on the market that will burn all day because the oxygen is restricted. They are well engineered and heavily built. A homemade rig is a very great hazzard.

You are a woodworker. You do not spend hundreds of hours reinventing the table saw and come up with an unsafe cobbled together one....that would be a waste of time you could be spending earning from using your woodworking skills. You go out and buy one if it will profit your business. Same with sawdust. If you see an advantage to buying a safe burner unit, in terms of bottom line, then do so. Otherwise give the saw dust to a stable or composting operation.

gto

1/3/09       #13: My sawdustburner ...
Joe Redburn  Member

Steve,
Your design is a take off of the stoves that the peopled of India have used for heat for the last 50 years. Theirs do not even use chimney's. They use gallon paint cans, punch a hole in the bottom, sick a pipe in the hole, pack it with sawdust, pull the pipe, set it up on rocks and light the bottom. It burns slow, produces little smoke and lots of heat.
I used to build airtight heating stoves and there are a couple of things you need to keep in mind. All wood produces creosote when burned. Your chimney joints need to have the female end up so the creosote will run inside the pipe instead of out onto the floor. You will need to clean the stove pipe every once in awhile to get rid of the creosote tar as it is very flamable. You will eventually get a fire in the chimney and it can set your roof on fire. That is experience talking by the way.
Anything that will burn must be kept away from the stove. The radiant heat from those things is intense. A customer of mine put a large airtight in his basement, filled it full of pine logs and almost burnt his house down. The 1/4 steel plate was cherry red and the temperature in the basement was over 120 degrees. That was with the dampers shut.
You are literally playing with fire,
If you want to burn solid wood (fall down) then get an airtight stove and put a blower fan across the top of it to move the heat around the shop.
Regards
Joe

1/3/09       #14: My sawdustburner ...
Gary

Steve, I can truly relate to your desire to get something (heat) for next to nothing and your drive to build this sawdust burner.

I can relate to this because I to, have been down this road. For years I have been giving away more sawdust than it would take to heat a small town. It has always pained me to "give" it away and turn around and buy fuel to heat my shop. At least my sawdust was being used for beding and not going to the landfill. That was green enough for me until LP hit $2.00/ gallon.

I decided to invest, in the proven and safe technology of briquetteing my sawdust and burning it in a commercially available outdoor wood burner.

I did consider alternative methods, most of which would have been much less cash outlay upfront. After much consideration I decided that the proven safety of existing time proven systems and the savings of my time justified the expence of the system I now have.

For me it was the right move. I burn my bi-product at my business and home. No more paying the ragheads for my heat! I love it!

I am the last one to stifil anyones drive and desire for coming up with a new? inexpensive heating system. BUT... to be honest I also share all the safety concerns and then some mentioned in the previous posts.

Please take them to heart and rethink if the direction you are persuing is worth the risks this paticular system seems to have.

9heat

1/3/09       #15: My sawdustburner ...
Burned up

Sounds like some stove manufactures trying to step on a little guy.

Keep going Steve. Take notice of what they are saying, but don't let it stop you from experimenting. You aren't stupid, don't let the detractors tell you that you are.

1/4/09       #16: Re: Re: Re: Re: My sawdustburner ...
steve Member

Thank you all for the insite to this thing. Here is another pic of it going with maybe three pieces of solid wood. I will take pics of it packed with dust before I start it, during the burn when it is a glowing funnel and the end. I ran it tonight with about the same amount of wood in it as the picture. I don't dare fill it up completely with solids. Only with packed sawdust do I do that. When the saw dust gets going well the flame disappears and there is no smoke exiting from the stack. It reminds me of those old hand warmers that have a solid stick you light and then blow the flame out and stick it in the insulated warmer. No flame or smoke just lots of heat. I noticed the gasification happening with the small amount of wood I put in there tonight also. When my eyes and ears weren't glued to the burner I was monitoring the chimney noticing just the heat rising and no smoke. What a clean burn! Some of the prior posts took me to a new level of awareness. I couldn't help but to constaintly crack the lid just enough to see what was going on in the burn chamber. (I didn't have the air choked off at the time creating any kid of vacuum and I didn't create any back draft that blew me across the shop by doing so.)
I haven't found anymore runs of creosote since I burnt almost complete barrels of green white oak dust about thirty some uses ago. What a waste of time and one heck of a mess that was to clean up. As I mentioned before there is no smoke or a very small amount on occasion. I took the stove pipe apart after burning the wet dust because of how bad it gummed up everything. The inside of the magic heater took forever to clean but I feel better that I did. Recently I took the pipe apart and there was no thick build up like before. Just a very fine powder of ash. I will flip the seam direction of the stove pipe anyways to prevent the mess again. In a way I'm glad it did leak out showing me what was going on. Once the weather breaks I will move it back outside to see if I can get it to melt or burn through using solid wood.
During initial start when using dust I hear a very slight rumble from the flame. After about fifteen to twenty minutes the rumble stops and I close the blast gate completely. After that it is silent for the rest of the burn except for the lid returning back to its cooled state at the end of burn. I can't seem to burn longer than 8 hours off of it without sacrificing heat from using greener loads. That's not bad though light it and no stoking or adding to it for 8 hours. That's alot more time dedicated to creating the fuel source.
If I down size the stove pipe to say 4" I imagine the draw will reduce but will the creosote build up quicker from flow resistance?


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1/4/09       #17: My sawdustburner ...
"X"avier

I enjoyed seeing and reading about the saw dust stove. In the late 60"s I made and used one and had great sucess with it.

What everyone forgets is that it is just a knock off from the old pot belly stove. All the air/draw is controlled thus the fire is regulated. The main fire for the saw dust is the center hole thus the walls of the inner drum is not even close to becoming damaged. Thus the inner drum is used over and over again.

My only suggestion is to reinstall the damper above the gate valve for it has a flutter action in the exhaust. and the gate valve may freeze in its position.

Well done Steve. Enjoy the heat.

By the way, Where"s the Coffee Pot?

""X""

5/6/09       #18: My sawdustburner ...
steve forest Member

I worked in wood fired power plants for several years. These were professionally designed, built, and operated. We had fires in the woodpile, feeder system, ash system, i am probably forgetting some other places.

5/7/09       #19: My sawdustburner ...
steve

Website: http://cellarworx.org

Well, mine survived the winter. I tore down my stove pipe completely. There was minor build-up inside mainly from the attempt to burn a barrel of 100% green sawdust. I removed everything on account of my shop floor replacement. I hate concrete work. When complete I will reinstall the burner higher off the floor even though the temp. of the floor is cold to the touch when running full tilt. You never know.

9/22/09       #20: My sawdustburner ...
Mike O'Neill  Member

I used sawdust to boil maple sap last March. I only tapped 1 tree. Got about 9 pints of syrup. This is a 15 gal burner inside a 55 gal drum. No draft control. I used fresh sawdust off the Woodmizer, and also dry planer chips. Just a big dishpan full of sap on top. The last picture shows a pot of additional sap preheating on top. Next spring I will tap 4 or 5 trees. Just doing it for a hobby. I'll go to a 30 gallon burner next year.


View higher quality, full size image (1281 X 640)

9/22/09       #21: My sawdustburner ...
steve

Website: http://cellarworx.com

Mines still doing quite well. I just built a 700 plus sawdust storage hopper outside with an auger on the bottom. It makes filling my smaller barrels alot easier. The auger is run by a variable speed motor so I can control flow rate. For a while I was just blowing the dry dust outside onto a tarp. That was ok untill it rained. There went my heat for the winter. Oh well, glad that's in the past. Just have to fill my hopper again to get me through another winter.

11/14/09       #22: My sawdustburner ...
Merritt Member

While you have that thing apart, how bout some internal pics?

11/14/09       #23: My sawdustburner ...
Chris Casto Member

Looks good Steve. I've been using an experimental version in my house piped up my chimney with just a 5 gallon bucket of sawdust in a homemade stove. I can burn solid wood, sawdust for heating, or sawdust with a smaller hole for maintaining temperature. All good and fun just be careful as always. Playing with fire is always fun until we get burnt in some way. ;)

11/16/09       #24: My sawdustburner ...
"X"avier

Years ago I took a clean one gallon can that had a removeable lid on it and made my mini stove. I punched holes in the lid so it would have air for the flame. Inside the one gallon can was an open top can (small one about 3 1/2 inches tall). Inside the small can I placed a small candle. With the candle lit and the lid on, I had my survival stove for my truck while stuck in the snow. Worked great and I wasn't wasting gas . Found other places that I could use it at.

"X"

11/16/09       #25: My sawdustburner ...
steve

I don't have any recent pics of it but I must say, sitting here typing next to it really makes me appreciate the presence of it in my shop. Despite some of the negativity this topic produced I have chose to continue on with it my shop. My eye's and ears are alittle more tuned in when I'm running it but it's still the same old sawdust burner. The only trouble I had with it is when I tried to push it's limits. Now I just pack it 5 gallons of wet per barrel, light it and carry out my work for the evening. Full tilt I get 78 deg. and dampered down I maintain 66-70 for 7 or 8 hours. I can't ask for anymore than that. I want to recreate it from stainless steel so it looks a little more pretty. Maybe some day.

11/17/09       #26: My sawdustburner ...
Chris Casto Member

Well it will be good with the coming winter. I'm actually getting ready to retro fit water heating on mine to, so I'll have heat and hot water long after the fire burns out. Projects never end. :)

11/17/09       #27: My sawdustburner ...
steve

I've wanted to do the heated water thing for a while. If I would have had the cash for the pvc tubing, I would have put it in the concrete before I poured and done it the right way. Please post your project if you go through with it and I will as well.

9/5/12       #28: My sawdustburner ...
Bosch 4100-09 Table Saw Review Geek Member

Website: http://www.tablesawreviewsgeek.com/reviews/bosch-4...

I happen to believe that's the coolest little home made contraption I've seen this week. Would I put it inside the shop....probably not, but it's still cool. Thanks for sharing!


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