Professional Finishing Forum

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Adhesion issues


Iím having a problem that I am hoping someone can help me with. I am using flat sawn red oak that I am bleaching twice then washing with vinegar to neutralize. After drying for several days I am spray staining with Gemini microlift. I let the stain dry overnight then sealing with Sherwin Williams kemvar conversion varnish. Letting it sit overnight then scuffing and top coating. When I put the second coat on within a couple minutes the finish wrinkles. I have never seen such bad finish failure. Now I have already done a good portion of this project without any problem, but when I started to do the doors and drawer front I started having the problems. The only thing that I have done different in the process is I had to change the bleach. What I used on the first batch was a 3-1 solution. I ran out of that bleach, so I contacted my manufacturer. The manufacturer said that bleach was not available anymore, so I had to get bleach that was now 1-1 solution. I still followed the neutralizing protocol and let dry for several days. This is where the problem seems to be coming from, but I am wondering if anyone has had this problem or maybe can steer me in the right direction for a solution to this problem and hopefully a fix. thanks

10/23/18       #2: Adhesion issues ...
rich c.

I'd assume the surface is too acidic. Try a sample using a wash with distilled water, then a baking soda/distilled water mix.

10/23/18       #3: Adhesion issues ...
rich c.

Try that wash without the vinegar.

10/24/18       #4: Adhesion issues ...

Tell us exactly how your mixing the kemvar.... product# catalyst# reducer's, retarder's etc etc....amounts/ratios ect. ect.
I'm very familiar with Kemvar C.V.
In my experience with kemvar wrinkling it's because the first coat was sanded too aggressive... any burn through our thin spots are susceptible to being lifted by the next coat..... this can also happen if you are reducing with a solvent that's not recommended..... Let me know how your mixing because your process sounds just fine. We generally seal with T67F7 catalyzed with v66v26 at 2% instead of self seal but obviously you can just use itself as a sealer as well...

10/24/18       #5: Adhesion issues ...
Jim Clark

If you're thinning with lacquer thinner then
that's probably the culprit.
Most lacquer thinners these days are
reconstituted junk, and very "hot"
I started using auto grade urethane reducer
several years ago and it works much better.
You may try that.
You can find it at any auto paint store.

10/24/18       #6: Adhesion issues ...

Using kemvar dull rubbed effect v84 f 83 catalyst v66 v 21. Using as self sealer. Scuffing with fine scuff pad then top coat. I am not reducing either coat.

10/24/18       #7: Adhesion issues ...
Tyler Member

this time of year with the cold the finish can act a little thicker. If you're not reducing it at all and applying too much finish, you could be having an issue where the bottom coat isnt properly drying. Try 5-10% reducer, it may help

10/24/18       #8: Adhesion issues ...

Im running a bleach job right now on red grandis solid with that exact same topcoat.... we are bleaching the hardwood up to 6-7 times to get all the color out...wipe down with straight vinegar and staining/sealing the next day... Only difference is that I'm sealing with t67f7 and the topcoat im reducing 20% with butyl acetate to keep the film thickness low for open pore look... No issues with PH or wrinkling..

11/9/18       #9: Adhesion issues ...
John L

Iím guessing that on your 3:1 discontinued bleach product it was 3 parts hydrogen peroxide to 1 part sodium hydroxide. With the replacement product at 1:1, youíre likely ending up with more residual lye salts on the wood with a higher ratio of lye to hydrogen peroxide. When you neutralize with vinegar, the vinegar reacts with the residual lye salts creating sodium acetate, yet another salt, which is a desiccant, being both alcohol and water soluble. You likely have more of this stubborn salt on and in the wood and you need to remove it by washing it with hot distilled water and a microfiber towel. Iím guessing that the sodium acetate is combining with the butanol and propanol components in the Kemvar, actually acting like a drier, resulting in wrinkling. The stuff will migrate to the surface of your first coat. The salt wreaks havoc with waterborne finishes and shellac as well.

Was the discontinued bleach IFP brand?

  • Post a Response to this thread
  • notify me of responses to this topic
  • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!

    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:

    Date of your Birth:

    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)

  • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)