Message Thread:
Heavy door construction
3/7/23
HI-
I'm hoping someone can help me.
Ive been building custom entry doors for over 30 years but I'm stumped.
Ive been asked to build a 48" x 84" x 2.25" arched top, White Oak door, to duplicate the owners existing door that is just over 100 years old and holding up perfectly.
There are perhaps 25 raised panels, bolectin moulded, but the problem I see is that stiles appear to be about 3" wide, and all rails, (include the top and bottom) are also only 3" wide.
I cannot see how even a pegged mortis and tenon joint could possible hold this weight given the bottom rail is so narrow(3").
Does the cumulative widths of all intermediate rails total up to make a strong door as those with tall kick rails?
Looking for some help.
Thank you,
bob
3/8/23 #2: Heavy door construction ...
Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com
Then figure out how many square inches there are in the 3" wide joints. I'll bet lunch that the 3" joints, in toto, have more surface than the conventional rail/stile joints.
The two gate jobs below have 3" wide joints, except at the perimeter frame, 1-1/4" long, glued both sides.
One gate has 150 joints in it, for 1125 Sq Inches - almost 8 square feet! The other has more.
Historically, the doors you describe often had wide quartered or rift planks at the core and 3" framing, molding, etc. applied on each side. The t+g joints in the planks would run behind the applied framing. The tell was at the edges.
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3/8/23 #3: Heavy door construction ...
Thank you!
Sort what I guessed... that the sum total of all the intermediate rails might do the job.
Nice work BTW.
Thanks again,
bob
3/12/23 #4: Heavy door construction ...
The fact that the original door held up 100 years without sagging should give you some confidence. With the bolection moldings splined together at the corners and well fitted and glued to the main door frame you will have a lot of reinforcement for the narrow main frame joints.
3/12/23 #5: Heavy door construction ...
My experience has been that most sagging doors were due to failed glue. We tend to forget that hide glue was all there was, and it did not last forever. Pegs are great, but require close joinery, something that was not that common in door work 100 yrs ago.
3/12/23 #6: Heavy door construction ...
Gentlemen thank you!
I had not thought of gluing/splining (perhaps 4mm Domino?)the bolection mould...good idea, I guess every little bit helps.
Yes, at this point , because of all the feedback, I feel much more confident.
But I do believe I'll draw bore the tenons (if the owner will approve the look), and with good joinery this may have a good chance.
Thanks again,
bob
3/12/23 #7: Heavy door construction ...
You can make a strong connection by providing a ledge as thick as the panels for the mouldings to land on, as shown in Mr. Sochar's book on door construction. He grooves the stiles and rails and fills in with spline stock, using haunched tenons. I use spline tenons and run a tongue on the frame edges - the effect is the same.
custom door book
3/13/23 #8: Heavy door construction ...
Good idea, thank you.
Still vacillating, have some time until I build it, and the owner's not sure of some details, but thank you for your time.
bob
3/14/23 #9: Heavy door construction ...
If you glue all the joints limberly with an epoxy equivalent to West System, the surface area will be more than sufficient. Don't waste your time and money on other adhesives. Stick to the ones that hold boats together and forget the rest.
3/14/23 #10: Heavy door construction ...
Well versed in West Systems, and do love it.
A bit of a mess on a complicated, stained grade door, but I have to agree with you, the absolute best in my opinion.
Thank you for the suggestion.
bob
3/28/23 #11: Heavy door construction ...
@David R Sochar, that is a fantastic entryway/ set of gates. WOW!
3/29/23 #12: Heavy door construction ...
I did find out something interersting after talking to a West systems tech.
The glueing up of White Oak is a bit challenging, and the data show it actually has quite low tensile strength (adhesion?), even lower than Ipe, one of the lowest in fact, but apparently there is a work -around.
I think I'll try mockups using both Titebond II vs West
Systems, load it heavily, then see how they hold up.
Thank you for all your suggestions, it was very helpful.
bob
3/29/23 #13: Heavy door construction ...
https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/white-oak-redux/
The West guys have done extensive testing on all of their products.
The white oak is a very interesting problem. If you read the article the failures are all in the wood(lignin) not in the glue joint. The adhesion of all of the adhesives is not in question.
The author failed to mention the first difference between 105 and the rest of the adhesives. It soaks into porous woods. The other adhesives do not. I suspect something is happening near the soaked area after being subjected to those environmental changes.
G/Flex is an amazingly product. If you don’t feel comfortable with 105. I would be stunned if Titebond 2 or 3 would work in those tests.
Be careful gluing up Ipe. You need to rough it up with 80grit and low clamping pressure so you get thick glue lines, wipe with solvent as well. I’ve seen 100’s of ipe bent laminations(not mine) delam completely because they didn’t prep correctly.
3/30/23 #14: Heavy door construction ...
Actually most comfortable with 105, having only used G Flex for a small boat repair.
As for Ipe, yes Ive had the same delamination problem some 25 years ago. The tech at Gougen Bros. said the T shirt rags I was using (while wiping with Acetone), contaminated the surface with"melted" nylon/rayon/etc.
So tell me, what would you recommend, 105, 650 or 655?
Thank you for your time.
6/6/24 #15: Heavy door construction ...
Website: https://virmer.com/
The strength of the door doesn't just depend on the width of individual components but also on construction techniques like mortise and tenon joints. Consider using traditional joinery methods and reinforcing with pegs or dowels. White Oak is a durable wood choice. Test your design with a prototype before building the final door to ensure stability and strength.
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