Post a Response Subscribe Guidelines

Forestry

You are not logged in. [ Login ] Why log in
(NOTE: Login is not required to post)

Heavy door construction

3/7/23       
bob Member

HI-
I'm hoping someone can help me.

Ive been building custom entry doors for over 30 years but I'm stumped.
Ive been asked to build a 48" x 84" x 2.25" arched top, White Oak door, to duplicate the owners existing door that is just over 100 years old and holding up perfectly.

There are perhaps 25 raised panels, bolectin moulded, but the problem I see is that stiles appear to be about 3" wide, and all rails, (include the top and bottom) are also only 3" wide.

I cannot see how even a pegged mortis and tenon joint could possible hold this weight given the bottom rail is so narrow(3").

Does the cumulative widths of all intermediate rails total up to make a strong door as those with tall kick rails?

Looking for some help.

Thank you,
bob

3/8/23       #2: Heavy door construction ...
David R Sochar Member

Website: http://www.acornwoodworks.com
 Then figure out how many square inches there are in the 3" wide joints. I'll bet lunch that the 3" joints, in toto, have more surface than the conventional rail/stile joints.
The two gate jobs below have 3" wide joints, except at the perimeter frame, 1-1/4" long, glued both sides.
One gate has 150 joints in it, for 1125 Sq Inches - almost 8 square feet! The other has more.
Historically, the doors you describe often had wide quartered or rift planks at the core and 3" framing, molding, etc. applied on each side. The t+g joints in the planks would run behind the applied framing. The tell was at the edges.


View higher quality, full size image (2992 X 2992)

3/8/23       #3: Heavy door construction ...
bob Member

Thank you!

Sort what I guessed... that the sum total of all the intermediate rails might do the job.
Nice work BTW.

Thanks again,
bob

3/12/23       #4: Heavy door construction ...
Kevin Jenness

The fact that the original door held up 100 years without sagging should give you some confidence. With the bolection moldings splined together at the corners and well fitted and glued to the main door frame you will have a lot of reinforcement for the narrow main frame joints.

3/12/23       #5: Heavy door construction ...
David Sochar

My experience has been that most sagging doors were due to failed glue. We tend to forget that hide glue was all there was, and it did not last forever. Pegs are great, but require close joinery, something that was not that common in door work 100 yrs ago.

3/12/23       #6: Heavy door construction ...
bob Member

Gentlemen thank you!
I had not thought of gluing/splining (perhaps 4mm Domino?)the bolection mould...good idea, I guess every little bit helps.

Yes, at this point , because of all the feedback, I feel much more confident.
But I do believe I'll draw bore the tenons (if the owner will approve the look), and with good joinery this may have a good chance.

Thanks again,
bob

3/12/23       #7: Heavy door construction ...
Kevin Jenness

You can make a strong connection by providing a ledge as thick as the panels for the mouldings to land on, as shown in Mr. Sochar's book on door construction. He grooves the stiles and rails and fills in with spline stock, using haunched tenons. I use spline tenons and run a tongue on the frame edges - the effect is the same.

custom door book

3/13/23       #8: Heavy door construction ...
bob franzen Member

Good idea, thank you.
Still vacillating, have some time until I build it, and the owner's not sure of some details, but thank you for your time.

bob

3/14/23       #9: Heavy door construction ...
Adam

If you glue all the joints limberly with an epoxy equivalent to West System, the surface area will be more than sufficient. Don't waste your time and money on other adhesives. Stick to the ones that hold boats together and forget the rest.

3/14/23       #10: Heavy door construction ...
bob franzen Member

Well versed in West Systems, and do love it.

A bit of a mess on a complicated, stained grade door, but I have to agree with you, the absolute best in my opinion.

Thank you for the suggestion.
bob

3/28/23       #11: Heavy door construction ...
Chippy1987 Member

@David R Sochar, that is a fantastic entryway/ set of gates. WOW!

3/29/23       #12: Heavy door construction ...
bob franzen Member

I did find out something interersting after talking to a West systems tech.
The glueing up of White Oak is a bit challenging, and the data show it actually has quite low tensile strength (adhesion?), even lower than Ipe, one of the lowest in fact, but apparently there is a work -around.

I think I'll try mockups using both Titebond II vs West
Systems, load it heavily, then see how they hold up.

Thank you for all your suggestions, it was very helpful.

bob

3/29/23       #13: Heavy door construction ...
Adam

https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/white-oak-redux/

The West guys have done extensive testing on all of their products.

The white oak is a very interesting problem. If you read the article the failures are all in the wood(lignin) not in the glue joint. The adhesion of all of the adhesives is not in question.

The author failed to mention the first difference between 105 and the rest of the adhesives. It soaks into porous woods. The other adhesives do not. I suspect something is happening near the soaked area after being subjected to those environmental changes.

G/Flex is an amazingly product. If you don’t feel comfortable with 105. I would be stunned if Titebond 2 or 3 would work in those tests.

Be careful gluing up Ipe. You need to rough it up with 80grit and low clamping pressure so you get thick glue lines, wipe with solvent as well. I’ve seen 100’s of ipe bent laminations(not mine) delam completely because they didn’t prep correctly.

3/30/23       #14: Heavy door construction ...
bob franzen Member

Actually most comfortable with 105, having only used G Flex for a small boat repair.

As for Ipe, yes Ive had the same delamination problem some 25 years ago. The tech at Gougen Bros. said the T shirt rags I was using (while wiping with Acetone), contaminated the surface with"melted" nylon/rayon/etc.

So tell me, what would you recommend, 105, 650 or 655?

Thank you for your time.


Post a Response
  • Notify me of responses to this thread
  • Subscribe to email updates on this Forum
    • To receive email notification of additions to this forum thread,
    enter your name and email address, and then click the
    "Keep Me Posted" button below.

    Please Note: If you have posted a message or response,
    do not submit this request ... you are already signed up
    to receive notification!
    Your Name:
    E-Mail Address:
    Enter the correct numbers into the field below:
     

    Date of your Birth:



    Return to top of page

    Buy & Sell Exchanges | Forums | Galleries | Site Map

    FORUM GUIDELINES: Please review the guidelines below before posting at WOODWEB's Interactive Message Boards (return to top)

  • WOODWEB is a professional industrial woodworking site. Hobbyist and homeowner woodworking questions are inappropriate.
  • Messages should be kept reasonably short and on topic, relating to the focus of the forum. Responses should relate to the original question.
  • A valid email return address must be included with each message.
  • Advertising is inappropriate. The only exceptions are the Classified Ads Exchange, Machinery Exchange, Lumber Exchange, and Job Opportunities and Services Exchange. When posting listings in these areas, review the posting instructions carefully.
  • Subject lines may be edited for length and clarity.
  • "Cross posting" is not permitted. Choose the best forum for your question, and post your question at one forum only.
  • Messages requesting private responses will be removed - Forums are designed to provide information and assistance for all of our visitors. Private response requests are appropriate at WOODWEB's Exchanges and Job Opportunities and Services.
  • Messages that accuse businesses or individuals of alleged negative actions or behavior are inappropriate since WOODWEB is unable to verify or substantiate the claims.
  • Posts with the intent of soliciting answers to surveys are not appropriate. Contact WOODWEB for more information on initiating a survey.
  • Excessive forum participation by an individual upsets the balance of a healthy forum atmosphere. Individuals who excessively post responses containing marginal content will be considered repeat forum abusers.
  • Responses that initiate or support inappropriate and off-topic discussion of general politics detract from the professional woodworking focus of WOODWEB, and will be removed.
  • Participants are encouraged to use their real name when posting. Intentionally using another persons name is prohibited, and posts of this nature will be removed at WOODWEB's discretion.
  • Comments, questions, or criticisms regarding Forum policies should be directed to WOODWEB's Systems Administrator
    (return to top).

    Carefully review your message before clicking on the "Send Message" button - you will not be able to revise the message once it has been sent.

    You will be notified of responses to the message(s) you posted via email. Be sure to enter your email address correctly.

    WOODWEB's forums are a highly regarded resource for professional woodworkers. Messages and responses that are crafted in a professional and civil manner strengthen this resource. Messages that do not reflect a professional tone reduce the value of our forums.

    Messages are inappropriate when their content: is deemed libelous in nature or is based on rumor, fails to meet basic standards of decorum, contains blatant advertising or inappropriate emphasis on self promotion (return to top).

    Libel:   Posts which defame an individual or organization, or employ a tone which can be viewed as malicious in nature. Words, pictures, or cartoons which expose a person or organization to public hatred, shame, disgrace, or ridicule, or induce an ill opinion of a person or organization, are libelous.

    Improper Decorum:   Posts which are profane, inciting, disrespectful or uncivil in tone, or maliciously worded. This also includes the venting of unsubstantiated opinions. Such messages do little to illuminate a given topic, and often have the opposite effect. Constructive criticism is acceptable (return to top).

    Advertising:   The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not an advertising venue. Companies participating in a Forum discussion should provide specific answers to posted questions. WOODWEB suggests that businesses include an appropriately crafted signature in order to identify their company. A well meaning post that seems to be on-topic but contains a product reference may do your business more harm than good in the Forum environment. Forum users may perceive your references to specific products as unsolicited advertising (spam) and consciously avoid your web site or services. A well-crafted signature is an appropriate way to advertise your services that will not offend potential customers. Signatures should be limited to 4-6 lines, and may contain information that identifies the type of business you're in, your URL and email address (return to top).

    Repeated Forum Abuse: Forum participants who repeatedly fail to follow WOODWEB's Forum Guidelines may encounter difficulty when attempting to post messages.

    There are often situations when the original message asks for opinions: "What is the best widget for my type of shop?". To a certain extent, the person posting the message is responsible for including specific questions within the message. An open ended question (like the one above) invites responses that may read as sales pitches. WOODWEB suggests that companies responding to such a question provide detailed and substantive replies rather than responses that read as a one-sided product promotion. It has been WOODWEB's experience that substantive responses are held in higher regard by our readers (return to top).

    The staff of WOODWEB assume no responsibility for the accuracy, content, or outcome of any posting transmitted at WOODWEB's Message Boards. Participants should undertake the use of machinery, materials and methods discussed at WOODWEB's Message Boards after considerate evaluation, and at their own risk. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages it deems inappropriate. (return to top)



    • Forum Posting Help
    Your Name The name you enter in this field will be the name that appears with your post or response (return to form).
    Your Website Personal or business website links must point to the author's website. Inappropriate links will be removed without notice, and at WOODWEB's sole discretion. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    E-Mail Address Your e-mail address will not be publicly viewable. Forum participants will be able to contact you using a contact link (included with your post) that is substituted for your actual address. You must include a valid email address in this field. (return to form)
    Subject Subject may be edited for length and clarity. Subject lines should provide an indication of the content of your post. (return to form)
    Thread Related Link and Image Guidelines Thread Related Links posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should point to locations that provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related Link that directs visitors to an area with inappropriate content will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Thread Related File Uploads Thread Related Files posted at WOODWEB's Forums and Exchanges should provide supporting information for the topic being discussed in the current message thread. Video Files: acceptable video formats are: .MOV .AVI .WMV .MPEG .MPG .MP4 (Image Upload Tips)   If you encounter any difficulty when uploading video files, E-mail WOODWEB for assistance. The purpose of WOODWEB Forums is to provide answers, not to serve as an advertising venue. A Thread Related File that contains inappropriate content will be removed, and uploaded files that are not directly related to the message thread will be removed. WOODWEB reserves the right to delete any messages with links, files, or images it deems inappropriate. (return to form)
    Related Information:
    Products: Sawing & Drying
    Resources: Timber & Lumber Calculators
    Forums: Sawing & Drying, Value-Added Wood Processing
    Exchanges: Lumber
    Galleries: Sawmill

    Recent Threads at all Forums

    Today's Sponsors

    Become a Sponsor today!