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Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops

4/17/24       
vince

Preparing to build tables as shown in photos.

The tops are planned to be raw maple burl veneer over 2 layers of 3/4" MDF face glued together with a 4 to 5 inch wide solid white oak frame.

Am I good with just the raw maple veneer only, since the table top will be 1 1/2" thick with the heavy frame?

Or is it neccesary to apply another layer of veneer (Sapele?) either between the MDF sheets, or on the bottom of them?


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4/18/24       #2: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
David

The maple burl veneer should be two plied for stability. Just using the veneer single ply is a recipe for disaster.

4/18/24       #3: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
Vince Member

I am assuming you mean a of layer of standard maple veneer on the bottom? Hopefully it does not need to be burl like the top?

4/18/24       #4: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
David

Vince,

I’m not sure where you’re located, but I would try to find a veneer face shop that can two ply these faces. Plain maple for the backer would be fine. A face maker would sandwich a glue film between the two veneers and then press them together. Essentially you would have one thick veneer face once it’s completed.

4/19/24       #5: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
Vince Member

I am all ready to adhere the veneer to my substrate with vacuum bags and cauls anyway.. why can't I two-ply the face veneer in my shop if that is truly what is required for this project?

Also, can someone explain why I cannot just flatten and then glue this quad-matched maple burl 1 ply?

4/19/24       #6: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
John Costin

YMMV, as they say on the message boards, but custom veneer has been our core business for almost 25 years so our practices are pretty well road-tested. Here goes.

The logic of making a balanced panel (veneered both sides, more on that in a moment) is that veneer is wood. As such, it will expand and contract across the grain with changes in moisture content. We see those changes seasonally, when moving environments, and as moisture leaves or enters the panel from adhesives, finishes, etc... In a balanced panel, both faces will expand or contract relatively equally; because equal force is exerted on both sides, the panel should stay relatively flat even when the MC of the faces changes. If only one side expands or contracts the panel may warp.

Sometimes people get away with veneering only one side of a panel. A very rigid panel may be able to resist the force of the expanding or contracting veneer. But wood can be strong -- think about how stone was traditionally quarried by inserting very dry wood pegs into holes in the stone, then pouring water on them; the force of the expanding wood is enough to shear huge masses of stone. You might be surprised by how thick of a panel can be warped by one-sided veneering.

By this explanation you can see that the choice of balancing veneer can be important. Often, panel mills will balance semi-custom panels with inexpensive rotary tropical veneer where the backs will not be seen. This has led many woodworkers to think that the balancing veneer is not important and that any backer will work. This is not always the case, and in fact the Architectural Woodwork Institute specifies that balancing veneer should be as similar as possible to the veneer on the show face.

We really see this with burl veneer. Because of the way burls grow, burl wood expands and contracts in all directions (there is no "across the grain" with burl). So if we balance a burl panel with longwood we are only balancing it in one direction. If the panel is able to warp, it will. For this reason, we usually use a less-expensive burl veneer to balance where backs/bottoms will not be seen. Sometimes synthetic sheets (Gatorply, Yorkite, etc...) can be used because these will also expand and contract in all directions.

As for crossbanding (applying veneer between the veneer and the panel) I don't think it's necessary in the case of burl. It is often used with crotch veneer because crotch is very brittle and has a tendency to shatter along the grain lines. In this case, a longwood crossband running perpendicular to the crotch can help restrain movement of the crotch veneer. When adhering a burl veneer to MDF you actually have a very friendly condition: both the substrate and the veneer are expanding and contracting in all directions. We have never seen problems with crotch veneer pressed directly to MDF with an appropriate adhesive.

I hope that this information is helpful to you, and good luck!

John Costin
Veneer Services Unlimited
Custom Veneered Products for the Woodworking Industry
(207) 459-7221
vsu@gwi.net

4/20/24       #8: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
Joseph Eultgen

Call Indiana Architectural veneer in trafalgar Indiana. Ask for Steve Stanton. They can make you up the veneer glued to your core and thickness if choice ir they can make you ply faces. 2 or 3 y faces. The work they do us Incredible and very fairly priced.

4/21/24       #9: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
John Costin

I just caught a typo in my post above. I should have written "We have never seen problems with *burl* veneer pressed directly to MDF with an appropriate adhesive."

My apologies if this caused any confusion.

John Costin
Veneer Services Unlimited
Custom Veneered Products for the Woodworking Industry
(207) 459-7221
vsu@gwi.net

4/23/24       #10: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
vince

John,

Thank you for your detailed response. Plan is to adhere the maple burl veneer directly to MDF surface, with another sheet of maple burl on the bottom as well. Would it be ok to pick a less figured maple burl for bottom?

Planning on using this glue: https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Better-Bond-X-Press-Veneer-Glue.html

My
plywood supplier will not do small amounts of high density MDF, but they do offer a veneer core with mdf on outer layers. I am assuming this is alright to use in place of solid MDF?

4/23/24       #11: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
John Costin

Vince --

Using a less-precious Maple burl veneer on the bottom of your table is a good move.

Veneer core with MDF outer layers (PLUMA HDF is dominant in the market, I believe) is a good substrate, too. Sometimes that MDF face is little mill-glazed; a light scuffing is cheap insurance for adhesion.

Lastly, I don't have any direct experience with the adhesive you referenced but I believe it is a PVAc-based glue. It should be fine, and your options are pretty limited at this point due to EPA regulations on urea-formaldehyde trickling down to small shops effective at the beginning of this month.

John

John Costin
Veneer Services Unlimited
Custom Veneered Products for the Woodworking Industry
(207) 459-7221
vsu@gwi.net

4/23/24       #12: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
RichC

I'd be more worried about any wide miters on the frame and that extreme overhang on the left table.

4/24/24       #13: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
Vince Member

Rich C-

Do you think butt joints would be better than miters for the white oak frame?

All overhangs are the same, must be optical illusion that one table has more. They wanted plenty of space for legs under tables.

Anyone else-

Is red rosin paper acceptable for stacking between the softener-wetted veneers in the drying process? I want to avoid any possible staining from this part of the process.

4/24/24       #14: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
John Costin

I haven't tried rosin paper but I would not use it based on the fact that it is intended to be a moisture barrier. You want something that absorbs moisture. Plain brown kraft paper is great -- try to find the stuff that is most like an old school paper grocery bag (you could even use old school paper grocery bags if your veneer leaves are small enough). We see this as dunnage in packages often.

HDF or MDF will also work. Avoid anything that is treated, like tempered hardboard. You want the moisture from the veneer flattener/softener to be absorbed into the stacking material.

John Costin
Veneer Services Unlimited
Custom Veneered Products for the Woodworking Industry
(207) 459-7221
vsu@gwi.net

4/24/24       #15: Maple Burl Veneer Table Tops ...
Vince Member

I found this:

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CQZ1TYX9/ref=mp_s_a_1_2_sspa?crid=2OYH4NBTDYUU&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.sZoU0DkxYkz1V
3QjQ5ldDsoqMZgtjV65eqBqoKuIAl8ecJfXo2_w2-A4oC-HWg1TyKwR0RD9GQwSENR6dCeumoiK-AQJgo
QcTvt5sSX-5xxlmlm7rB3FufIaQgtwxyzkQnatsZPCLW5d2lmSlYVdZlZ5yhSQomFnyyfbgMjWLjxTV3Y
qOEdBnDDnJ7SKrHYPuouxheWSux-9KiSKfXcMWw.ird_wYr0HejeGvNEwBW-8E3J7A3nMv7uE2GqXpvmE
uM&dib_tag=se&keywords=brown+kraft+paper+roll&qid=1713973254&spre
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